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Tony,<br>
<br>
I would say that kidnapping a private citizen on foreign soil is an act
of aggression, and shows hostile intent to the state involved. At the
very least, it shows that we don't respect that country's sovereignty.
In this case it wasn't invasion because it wasn't carried out by our
troops, only our government operatives. If harm against a private
citizen on foreign soil is not a form of aggression worthy of fighting
back against, then why have a military at all?<br>
<br>
What I would like you to understand is that there is a huge gulf
between the idea of an aggressive, guilty, terrorist with blood on his
hands and someone who is only suspected of being involved with a
terrorist organization. The difference is that the suspected terrorist
might actually be innocent. Unfortunately, the only way they find that
out is after they have moved him to an illegal torture camp on foreign
soil and after they have tortured him enough to feel assured of his
innocence. Then what do they do? They can't let him go, or he'll blab
about their illegal torture camp. Isn't there something wrong with
this picture?<br>
<br>
The main difference, I think, between our viewpoints is that I think
that we should be responding to this crisis in such a way that we don't
tread on the civil liberties of our own citizens, or of those of other
countries. Our rights are more important than the ease with which we
can stop terrorism. How far do you take that idea, anyway? If it's
suspected that there is a lone terrorist in Moscow, should the
government feel free to bomb us back to the stone age just to be sure
that one suspected terrorist is dead? It's a natural progression from
where we were a few years ago to that sort of scenario.<br>
<br>
If we had not attacked Iraq, then I would say that we should be working
with foreign governments to track down and arrest terrorists with the
support of the military if needed. That doesn't mean that we should be
invading foreign countries on our own initiative. We should be working
with the UN to eradicate terrorists on foreign soil. Our intelligence
agencies should be working with those of other countries to track them
down.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
Tony wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid002401c753e4$a65cb190$2b88e942@simpson" type="cite">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Well Andreas, your question presumes
that a nation harboring an assumed terrorist could be characterized as
an ally. We do tend to use such terms somewhat loosely as far as our
relationships with Italy and Germany.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">And Paul, I would question the use
of the term "invasion" to describe a presence with NO HOSTILE INTENT
toward the state it entered. A presence which has as its sole intent,
the apprehension and bringing to justice of a lone individual. If
another state had highly compelling evidence that a citizen or
visitor in America were guilty of horrendous crimes, and we refused to
subject them to prosecution, further refusing to extradite, it would
ill behoove us to complain were that state to come after their
tormenter themselves.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Gentleman, try to understand that
you cannot defeat a sociopathic beast of an enemy by employing the
tactics of a Sunday School teacher.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Later on, -T</font></div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="godshatter@yahoo.com" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul
Rumelhart</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Sunday, February 18, 2007 3:48 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] Italy sides with terrorists</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Andreas Schou wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mida80566c40702181510h37734a96q9d55d38832d23523@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On 2/18/07, Tony <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:tonytime@clearwire.net%3E"><tonytime@clearwire.net></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ellen, I think that our government has not only the right, but the duty to
kidnap those who it strongly suspects are guilty of terrorism when said
suspects are being harbored and thus enabled, by a foreign power.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
We have the obligation to violate the laws of our allies?
-- ACS
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
And wouldn't the foreign power in question have the right to call the
presence of foreign troops on it's soil in the midst of a kidnapping an
invasion?<br>
<br>
We can't be prideful of our sovereignty if we don't respect that right
in other nation states.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<p> </p>
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