[Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Sat Feb 10 02:41:25 PST 2007
GAWD!!!! How blind can you be. Your "arguments" below are about a lame as
Wilson's were at the meeting last week.
NO ONE is asking for the removal of CC'ers or of Doug Wilson from Moscow.
This has been said so many times, it should be tattooed on yer brain by now.
All anyone is asking of them is that they follow the laws we ALL have to
follow, that they stop getting special treatment by the City, that they stop
the harassment of ex-members, that Wilson stop making things up as he goes
along (REALLY - abortion! is the reason for the "Slavery" book?!)
You don't know anything else about him but what you've heard here? How can
you comment about things, support a church or group or leader that YOU
REFUSE to look into just because another group of people speaks out against
them?! I mean, if someone said the sky was pink and you never looked to
make sure it was or wasn't, but you support a group that insists it is just
because another group says you shouldn't trust that first group, just how do
you think make you look?
And where is anyone telling people they "can't go to CC"? Where? If people
want to belong to a cult, as long as they are OPEN EYED when they enter it,
its up to them to become what they want. And for that matter, Doug IS being
challenged by his church in many areas. He just refuses to do the right
things and step down. As far as "Pope Wilson" is concerned, he can do no
wrong and that's that.
All anyone is asking and saying is please follow the laws, pay your fair
share, don't lie, and stop the harassment of ex-members. WHY is that so
hard for you to get your mind around? It is not YOUR beliefs that I
question - it is simply your willingness to buy into a group and its leader
when you refuse to know anything else about them but that they are being
questioned and challenged about by people you don't like.
Jeez - get over yourself! Despite what you want to believe this really is
NOT about you!
J :]
>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:39:51 -0800
>
>I don't know for sure why I am doing this...getting involved in a
>discussion
>with someone so focused on an individual that they do not see anything else
>but I am. I am relying on the history I learned in high school history
>classes because I have never been in a class of any sort with Mr. Wilson.
>Now I am old so I didn't learn then in classes nor from my parents any sort
>of revisionist history about the dropping of the bombs or anything else
>that
>some like to spout now. I am talking about 1937-38 when the Nazis marched
>in
>and took away the rights of the Jews...just for being Jews. Next they took
>the gypsies and then the handicapped and so on and so on until there was no
>one left to protect the innocent. So, if you and others get your way we
>boot
>step in and remove CC and do not leave the followers to their rights of
>belief. As I have said before...no one is walking around town with a gun
>saying we MUST go to CC. However, on this site you and others are doing all
>you can to make sure no one and I mean NO ONE can go to CC and have peace.
>The one and only person raving at me is YOU. I have only sort of met Mr.
>Wilson I bet he couldn't pick me out of any crowd but it seems that to you
>a
>person cannot have a thought other than yours without someone forcing it
>into their head. The only place I see any of his teachings is from you and
>others on this list who now have a personal ax to grind so much so that you
>are unbelievable. Mr. Wilson is not responsible to me for what he teaches
>and if the followers of his church do not see a problem that makes them
>want
>to leave it is not any of my business. I know some who are involved with CC
>and they are intelligent capable people. I have only heard from you when my
>beliefs do not fall into your line of hate and then the venom is deep and
>mean. With this said I don't think I have anything to add but I guess we'll
>see what evolves.
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 3:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
>
>
>And whose version of history are you trusting, Pat? Wilson's? Or the
>established, repeatedly verifiable history of decades and century's past?
>I
>mean, just 'cause Wilson says "things would have been different if I had
>been there" is not enough of a qualifier for most folks and speaks volumes
>of what he thinks his "powers" to affect are. Sad that you and people like
>you and Gary are falling for this crap, but....when in kirker-land....
>
>Oh, and to be clear - he is REPEATING history - Jim Jones, Vernon Howell,
>Warren Jeffs,....yep, history being repeated right here in Moscow! So,
>does
>he know history enough to not repeat it or just enough TO repeat it? And
>what "certain parts" would you rather he not repeat and which would you
>rather he DOES repeat? I mean, which of his thumbs would you like to be
>under, Pat?
>
>As for me and mine...NOT A SINGLE ONE!
>
>
>
>J :]
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
> >To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:09:40 -0800
> >
> >"Its obvious you are just as brainwashed and blind as the rest of the
> >kirkers. So - when do you take your vows for the church anyway? Or are
> >you
> >an "honorary" member
> >by now?"
> >Is this the only choice? Is it not possible to know a lot about history
>and
> >no desire to see certain parts repeated?
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:15 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> >
> >
> >
> >Don't know what a "bogeyman" is but I'm sure you are referencing someone
> >you
> >are very familiar with or related to. Either way - no thanks!
> >
> >As far as kirkers "supporting other businesses" - ONLY when they can not
> >get
> >it at a kirker-owned business, can they go outside and make a purchase.
> >The
> >back of their directory outlines just what shopping practices they are
> >supposed observe, the guidelines for shopping "outside" and lists what
> >kirker-owned businesses there are in town.
> >
> >As far as the rest of your drivill - not worth going into. Its obvious
>you
> >are just as brainwashed and blind as the rest of the kirkers. So - when
>do
> >you take your vows for the church anyway? Or are you an "honorary"
>member
> >by now?
> >
> >
> >J :]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > >To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> > >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 06:59:39 -0800
> > >
> > >Oh yes Ms. Ford, I am serious as a stroke. I don't care that the people
> >who
> > >are employed at the various places in question are members of the
>Wilson
> > >fold. They are residents of Moscow. People who own property in Moscow.
> >(and
> > >pay property tax in Moscow) They utilize the services of other
>businesses
> > >in Moscow. Eat, shop and recreate in Moscow, and despite your personal
> > >panics and phobias, over all, these people are good for Moscow's
>economy
> > >and I welcome them as neighbors and fellow citizens. I know that it's
> > >impossible for you to pass up an opportunity to regurgitate your litany
> >of
> > >anti-CC spleen, no matter what the topic might be but, when it comes to
> > >answering the question of what's impeding healthy growth in Moscow
>there
> > >can be no question that it's not your personal bogeyman.
> > >
> > >g
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> > >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 6:10 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Jeez, Gary - you can't be serious! Not one of the things you have
> > >mentioned
> > > > that Wilson "created" is for anyone else BUT HIS CHURCH! They do
>not
> > >hire
> > > > out of the church, therefore the the "payroll" created is bunk. The
> > >church
> > > > schools he has "created" buy his own books that his own press
> >publishes.
> > > He
> > > > fires or gets rid of anyone that disagrees with him or whose wife
> > >displeases
> > > > him (remember the Canon Press worker whose wife sent him an e-mail
> >that
> > >Doug
> > > > found displeasing?) Elders whose children do things Doug doesn't
> >like,
> > >get
> > > > canned. Only until that child is brought back into what Doug thinks
> >is
> > >in
> > > > line, do the elders get to be back on the big-boy's playing field.
> > >WOMEN
> > > > are not allowed to hold any kind of position of power. Taxes, which
> > >most
> > > > businesses have to pay, are not paid by CC businesses when they
>claim
> > > > non-profit status. Some of the BIGGEST buildings in the CBD don't
>pay
> > >taxes
> > > > because of this, leaving the rest of the small businesses down there
> >to
> > >pick
> > > > up the slack. Heck, there are members of that church who plain and
> > >simply
> > > > don't pay taxes because they don't agree with them. And just how
>many
> > >CCer
> > > > businesses have gone under because Doug has a falling out with the
> > >"owner"
> > > > of said business? Anyone eat at West of Paris lately - that is NOT
> > > > associated with the church, that is?
> > > >
> > > > Establishing illegal schools, not following the law in regards to
> >same,
> > > > demanding and getting special privileges in regards to zoning and
> > >building
> > > > developments or permits, support of a serial child molester as well
>as
> > > > another one that should STILL be in jail, not informing the public
> >about
> > > > these "men's" activities, promoting the dissolution of several
> >marriages
> > > > because Doug is unhappy with one of the spouses, demanding the death
> >of
> > > > certain populations within the city, condoning and recommending
> >slavery
> > >and
> > > > then two years after the publication of a book on that subject, he
> >tries
> > >a
> > > > lame excuse like "it really was all about abortion"...yep - sounds
> >like
> > >a
> > > > real benefit to the community, that does.
> > > >
> > > > J :]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>From: "g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net>
> > > >>To: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> > > >>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 17:20:20 -0800
> > > >>
> > > >>Lets see, on the one hand we have Nancy Chaney, Bob Stout, and last
> >but
> > >far
> > > >>from the least, Aaron Ament. All doing their absolute level best to
> > >prevent
> > > >>any kind of growth in Moscow which doesn't meet with their fantasy
> >ideal
> > > >>for
> > > >>our town. (think Mexican beach turtle herding) They enact ordinances
> > >which
> > > >>all but scream retail development need not apply and do their best
>to
> > > >>discourage growth of existing businesses.
> > > >>
> > > >>On the other hand we have Douglas Wilson, instrumental in the
> > >development
> > > >>of
> > > >>Christ Church, Logos, New St. Andrews, Cannon Press, etc.
> >Establishments
> > > >>with employees, customers, and a payroll. Establishments which,
> >despite
> > >the
> > > >>contrary droning of a small but vocal minority, are a benefit to our
> > >city.
> > > >>
> > > >>To imagine that Wilson even comes close to being the destructive,
> >anti-
> > > >>growth force in Moscow that our elected city council and mayor
> > >represents
> > > >>is
> > > >>silly, even by comparison to your previous standard, to which I
>become
> > > >>sadly
> > > >>accustomed.
> > > >>
> > > >>g
> > > >>
> > > >>----- Original Message -----
> > > >>From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
> > > >>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:17 PM
> > > >>Subject: [Vision2020] Wilsonista Strike again
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >I met someone today that is part of a non-religious group new to
> > >Moscow.
> > > >> > Since being here over the past month, this person has been
> >INUNDATED
> > > >>with
> > > >> > information, warnings and cautions about Wilson and Christ
>Church.
> > >Fact
> > > >> > is,
> > > >> > they and their family were warned about Wilson, et al, BEFORE
>they
> > >even
> > > >> > got
> > > >> > here by people who don't live in Moscow. They have just heard
>and
> > >seen
> > > >> > some
> > > >> > of the mess that has been going on through the paper, people's
>word
> > >of
> > > >> > mouth
> > > >> > personal reactions to incidents, the Slavery Book, etc.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Now THAT is just what this town needs - a reputation for breeding
> > >people
> > > >> > like Wilson. It no wonder we don't have more businesses looking
> >here
> > >to
> > > >> > open or people non-Wilsonista-connected to move and live here.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Good going, big guy...you're on the map and you're dragging us
>down
> > >with
> > > >> > you. Ever think of moving to the desert? I hear there's a nice
> > >bridge
> > > >> > down
> > > >> > in Arizona that you might want to build a moat around and declare
> > >your
> > > >> > kingdom from.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > J :]
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com>
> > > >> >>To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>, "'Saundra Lund'"
> > > >> >><sslund at roadrunner.com>
> > > >> >>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's Law Strikes Again!
> > > >> >>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:01:22 -1000
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>Tom and Saundra,
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>I'll be happy to bring coffee and donuts, and I'll even help
> > >straighten
> > > >> >>the
> > > >> >>club room after meetings. However, I will not take minutes, nor
> >will
> > >I
> > > >> >>volunteer to call and inform members of anything. And if you
>rent
> > > >>Kibbie
> > > >> >>Dome, I'm reconsidering my willingness to help straighten the
>club
> > >room.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>But thanks for the invite.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>Sue
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>----- Original Message -----
> > > >> >>From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> > > >> >>To: "'Saundra Lund'" <sslund at roadrunner.com>; "'Sue Hovey'"
> > > >> >><suehovey at moscow.com>
> > > >> >>Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >> >>Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 3:57 AM
> > > >> >>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Godwin's Law Strikes Again!
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> > Yes, Sue -
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Welcome to the Intoleristas.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Until you get better acquainted with the neighborhood, may I
> > >suggest
> > > >> >>that
> > > >> >> > Saundra show you around. As the newest addition to the rank
>and
> > > >>file,
> > > >> >>you
> > > >> >> > will be responsible for coffee and donut runs. We meet every
> >12th
> > >of
> > > >> >> > Never.
> > > >> >> > So, my advice would be "Don't be late."
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Guys, we really must get a larger club house. I hear that
>Doug
> > > >>Wilson
> > > >> >>can
> > > >> >> > get us a really sweet deal on renting the Kibbie Dome. How
> >about
> > >it?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Welcome aboard,
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Tom Hansen
> > > >> >> > Intolerista Sergeant-at-Arms
> > > >> >> > Moscow, Idaho
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > "If not us, who?
> > > >> >> > If not now, when?"
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > - Unknown
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
> > > >> >>[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> > > >> >> > On Behalf Of Saundra Lund
> > > >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 10:21 PM
> > > >> >> > To: 'Sue Hovey'
> > > >> >> > Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's Law Strikes Again!
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > In part, Sue Hovey wrote:
> > > >> >> > "Our relationship is finished, done. over."
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > WELCOME TO THE CLUB! We're glad to have you :-)))
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > Saundra Lund
> > > >> >> > Moscow, ID
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
> > >people
> > > >>to
> > > >> >>do
> > > >> >> > nothing.
> > > >> >> > - Edmund Burke
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006,
> > >Saundra
> > > >> >>Lund.
> > > >> >> > Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision
> > >2020
> > > >> >>forum
> > > >> >> > without the express written permission of the author.*****
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> > --
> > > >> >> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > >> >> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > >> >> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.27/671 - Release
>Date:
> > > >> >>2/5/2007
> > > >> >> > 4:48 PM
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
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