[Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

Ted Moffett starbliss at gmail.com
Sun Dec 9 16:57:04 PST 2007

Scott et. al.

I am not sure what your exact motivations are or were to comment as
you have in this thread.  From my reading of your posts, your
motivations appears mixed.  But your advice given in this thread,
regardless of the motivations, did not inform me of anything I did not
already know.  I am well aware of the behavior patterns of many
Vision2020 participants, and my comments in this thread were made with
knowledge of the potential consequences.

No matter how civil, reasonable or factual posts from a list serve
participant are, anyone surveying this unmoderated list serve over
recent years will discover that out of the blue they can become the
target of ugly personal attacks.  This is the risk anyone
participating in this list takes, unfortunately.

As far as apologizing to Ann Landers... Are you saying that your
advice, which I likened to the style of a Vision2020 Ann Landers, did
not meet Ann Landers standards?  Or that you thought I was mocking
your advice, comparing it to Ann Landers column?  Of course, Ann
Landers answered questions from the public.  I never asked for your
advice. I often read the famous Dear Abby column, sometimes finding it
rather silly, sometimes being pleasantly surprised that she offered,
in my opinion, enlightened and wise counsel; thus I was not
necessarily mocking you or Ann Landers, though I found the unsolicited
advice you were offering a bit condescending, even if well

Here is one example where I found Dear Abby's advice laudable, though
the website I quote below opposes Dear Abby's opinion:


Q: I see nothing wrong with a good, hard spanking when a child is
misbehaving. I am sick and tired of listening to whining brats in
supermarkets and department stores while their parents plead with them
to "behave yourself." When my kids acted like brats, I told them if
you don't be quiet, I'll take you to the car and give you something to
cry about!" They learned how to behave in public as well as at home.

My father was a very loving man who worked hard to support my mother,
my sister and me. If we didn't obey, he first let us know verbally. If
that didn't work, he'd take off his belt and use it. Once we got a
strapping, he never had to hit us for the same offense again.

Child abuse is one thing, but I believe not teaching children right
from wrong is neglectful. I often wonder how this young generation is
going to turn out and what our country is going to be like when the
spoiled brats are in control. - Future Shocked in Bellefontaine, Ohio

A: Parents who hit their children teach them to hit others. And,
please tell me, when does hitting end and beating begin? And who
decides where the line is? Depriving a child of privileges such as no
TV for a week or not being permitted to go to the movies, sports
events or the home of friends is much more effective. If you will read
the history of the most violent criminals, you will find that almost
without exception, they were physically abused throughout their

Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett

On 12/9/07, Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Nick wrote:
> > I think Ted Moffett's postings on the Vision are some of the most
>  civil,
> > best written, and thoroughly researched work I've read on this list.
> I couldn't agree more Nick.  This is why I would rather not see Ted mix
> it up with the likes of Gary.  When I referred to Gary as a
> street fighter in a previous post I wasn't equating this with ghetto gangs /
> power / dominance, I was referring to his style of virtually throwing a bucket
> of marbles on the floor in the hopes that you all start slip-sliding on them.
> Also, when I equate Gary to a "master debater" this isn't exactly intended
> as a compliment even though it may appear to come across that way to
> the more civil members of this list.
> > I contrast Ted's posts with one that Crabtree did on comparative
>  violence
> > in Christianity and Islam.  It was one paragraph long, gave no
>  references,
> > and yet he, after many objections, still stood by his
>  unsupported claims.
> I don't have a specific memory of this exchange and I delete a heck of a lot
> of posts, but it doesn't surprise me.  Most of the time Gary shoots from the hip.
> > And then there is the incivility, which for me places him beyond the
>  pale
> > with the Wilsonistas, whom he supports in a knee-jerk way.
> Gary is boorish in cyberspace.  Please avoid him whenever possible.  Also,
> my read is that he doesn't support Wilsonistas per se, although he does
> challenge some of the more outlandish claims made against Christ Churchers
> and Doug Wilson on this list and it's a good thing at least someone does.
> > Keep up the good work, Ted.
> Ditto
> > Nick Gier
> -Scott Dredge

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