[Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
Wed Dec 5 19:05:15 PST 2007


I don't know Ted.  Never met him, wouldn't recognize him if he was walking down the street in front of me.  However, I've found him to be honest and insightful, and he doesn't deserve this.

Keely




From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: sdredge at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2007 18:07:26 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street










And there we go! Why in the world would I need 
to devote any effort to making Mr. Muffett look silly when he does such a 
yeoman like job all by his lonesome. His " I am Spock, resurrected" 
spiel takes pompous to a here to fore unexplored level and his claims 
of being on the very verge of becoming a transcendent creature of pure intellect 
makes me wonder if he gets out of his mothers basement much. (I picture 
brain-Guy from MST3K hollering up the stairs "Quiet Ma, I'm almost ready to shed 
this vile carbon based vessel and become a ray of environmentally friendly 
energy. Bring me another Twinkie and a Sprite!" ) Keep pecking away on that man 
made global warming obsession you've got going, I'm sure that Al Gore will be 
around any day to thank you for your efforts assuming you haven't, well you 
know, transformed. I know I sure am happy you've been on the case. My 
appreciation is boundless, my amusement total.
 
Keep on thinkin' the big thoughts 
Tiger,
g
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Dredge" <sdredge at yahoo.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:42 
AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way 
street

>> Ted wrote: 
>> Scott et. al.
>>
>> 
You must be kidding?
>>
> Not at all.
> 
>> You 
write as though you think Vision2020 is some sort of ghetto gang
>> 
scene ("street fighter?" "toe to toe?") where making an ass of 
someone
>> dictates dominance and power?  How pathetic!  The 
more enlightened
>> readership on this list does not buy into this 
crude mentality.
> 
> v2020 is an unmoderated list.  The more 
enlightened readership hits the delete
> key on most of the postings 
including this one without reading any further (I
> would hope).
> 

>> Let Gary Crabtree "make complete asses out of the both of you on 
this
>> site," as you wrote.  I''ll just sit back and 
laugh!
> 
> At this point, fine by me.
> 
>> I am 
above the sort of irrational nonsense that Gary Crabtree posts to
>> 
this list, or to that community joke, "wrong-mind.us"  I don't 
care
>> what he says, if there is no content worth responding to, I 
simply
>> ignore it as not worth my time.  Ad hominem attacks, be 
my guest.
>> I've faced this many times before, in rather extreme ways, 
and if Gary
>> Crabtree thinks he can rattle my cage, "bring it on (God 
bless
>> conservative hero and professional moron George W. Bush for 
this now
>> immortal phrase signifying the idiocy of cowboy 
macho
>> overconfidence)."
> 
> Perfect!  I hope we 
don't ever again need to read from you or anyone else
> about how 
unethical Gary was for posting a private email considering you
> don't 
care what he posts.  But since this cardinal sin is such a hot 
button
> issue that really gets under your craw, I guess we'll just have 
to wait and
> see who gets blamed for what wrongdoing the next time 
HeirDoug or
> (anyone else for that matter) just 'cuts & pastes" from 
the v2020 archives.
> 
>> I am interested in fact based logical 
discourse on important issues,
>> in the Truth, not personal ego 
battles, or moral superiority
>> competitions between morally faulted 
human beings (as we all are!).
>> Anyone following my responses to 
ridiculous irrational attacks on
>> Vision2020, aimed my way, should 
realize this.
> 
> Great!  Start a new thread with a new 
subject line on some new topic
> more important than this one.
> 

>> The Temple of Reason is where I dwell on this list.  And 
without
>> radical means of persuasion, I will not falter from this 
position.
> 
> Good to hear.
> 
>> Come on Gary, make 
an ass of me!  I'll relish ignoring your every
>> attempt, as I 
continue to post on more important issues, like
>> anthropogenic 
climate change.  I know how devoted you are to
>> discovering the 
truth on this issue, being someone focused on the
>> objective pursuit 
of knowledge... Well, we can hope!
> 
> Good to hear a couple 
paragraphs above that you'll be ignoring Gary.
> 
>> Ted 
Moffett
> 
> Scott Dredge
> 
> On 12/3/07, Scott Dredge 
<sdredge at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
>> Ted / Joe,
>>
>> FWIW, I'm speaking for 
Gary because I truly do not want to see him
> make complete asses out 
of the both of you on this site on this issue and
> I'm trying to 
explain this in a way that I *thought* would make sense
> to both of 
you.  Gary's not going to follow your idea of proper 
list
> server etiquette.  He doesn't give a good God Damn if 
anyone thinks his
> posting of a private email was unethical.  
He posted a private email to
> let everyone know he received it and 
my guess is that he would prefer
> to receive no more emails like it 
(or maybe he would like to receive
> them and so he can post them 
publicly again).  So don't send any to him.
>>
>> Gary 
can waste his time responding on this but he's going to make
> both 
of you look just plain bad.  If you want to go toe to toe with 
Gary,
> be my guest.  Just be aware that Gary is a street 
fighter and he's not
> going to play by whatever rules you think he 
should play by and
> ultimately he's going to bait both of you into 
looking very foolish.  He's
> good at it.  Beyond that, 
he's not emotionally charged by this issue like
> you and Joe are 
which is what started this whole foolish nonsense to
> begin 
with.  He's not the one keeping this thing alive, the two of 
your
> are along with a little help from HeirDoug posing in 
drag.  If you want
> this issue to go away, then drop it.  
I've got nothing more to say on
> it so I'll just stand back, watch 
the carnage that Gary dishes out, and
> just shake my 
head.
>>
>> Take it away Gary, I'm sure this is going to be 
child's play for you
> but I've done my best to warn both of 
them...
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> ----- Original 
Message ----
>> From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>> 
To: Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com>; Joe 
Campbell
> <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:34:29 PM
>> Subject: 
[Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street
>>
>>
>> 
Scott et. al.
>>
>> You write as though you are Gary 
Crabtree's conscience in this
> matter,
>> when you write 
that "He's more than happy to move forward."  Let Gary
>> speak 
for himself.  Why are you speaking for him?
>>
>> Also, 
Joe's recent response to Gary in this thread was correct in
>> pointing 
out that the assumption that Gary might have posted the
>> recent 
re-posting of Joe's private e-mail, was not based on
>> "non-existent 
evidence," as Gary claimed.  The fact Gary originally
>> posted 
this private message, and has disputed with Joe many times on
>> 
Vision2020, is evidence to suggest Gary might engage in this conduct
>> 
again, to undermine Joe's recent post with this subject heading,
>> 
responding to Atwood's Daily News Op-Ed.
>>
>> Also, your 
argument immediately below, attempting to remove any
>> responsibility 
for objectionable list serve conduct on the part of
>> Gary for posting 
of a private e-mail, is questionable.  It 
is
> accepted
>> by almost all on this list serve that 
private e-mail not be posted to
>> the list.  If this was 
happening with regularity, it would certainly
>> undermine the health 
of this list, based in part on trust between
>> people for respect for 
their privacy.  I do not know all the details
>> of the case with 
Wilson and Morin you refer to, but I doubt the two
>> examples are 
precisely analogous.  I have received insulting private
>> e-mails 
from Vision2020 list members (along with a much larger
>> percentage of 
positive private responses!), but I have 
never
> responded
>> by posting these insulting private 
messages.
>>
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>> Sending 
Gary an insulting email was your fault.  You apologized.
>> 
Nothing more needs to be said.  Trying to pin any blame on Gary 
for
>> forwarding it v2020 is as weak to me as Doug Wilson's 
complaint
>> against Terry Morin for posting supposedly secret 
documents for the
>> whole world to see Doug as a rotten, lying 
skunk.
>> ------------------
>> Vision2020 Post: Ted 
Moffett
>>
>>
>> On 12/2/07, Scott Dredge 
<sdredge at yahoo.com> 
wrote:
>> > Joe,
>> >
>> > When this 
brouhaha first came to light, I recall you 
apologizing
> and
>>  Gary Crabtree accepting the 
apology and saying something to effect
> of
>>  "let's 
move on".  Gary isn't the one being petty about this and 
I'm
> sure
>>  he'd like nothing better than to move on 
to scoring more debate
> points
>>  on v2020 which is 
something he does very well being the 
master
> debater
>>  that he is.
>> 
>
>> > Sending Gary an insulting email was your fault.  You 
apologized.
>>  Nothing more needs to be said.  Trying to pin 
any blame on Gary for
>>  forwarding it v2020 is as weak to me as 
Doug Wilson's complaint
> against Terry
>>  Morin for 
posting supposedly secret documents for the whole world to
>>  see 
Doug as a rotten, lying skunk.
>> >
>> > There's not 
much you can do about Dale or HeirDoug reposting 
it
> again
>>  and again.  They don't quite 
understand the whole "I'm sorry, I made
> a
>>  
mistake, I'll try not to make the same one again" scenario.  
What
> else
>>  would you expect from disciples of a 
rogue pastor who makes all
> sorts
>>  of ludicrous 
statements and never refutes them because in his 
own
> mind
>>  it's a weakness to admit to any mistake 
(no matter how painfully
>>  obvious)?
>> 
>
>> > My advice is that when Heirdoug plays this card again - 
and you
> know
>>  he will because he's not very 
creative - leave Gary out of the mix.
>>  He's more than happy to 
move forward.
>> >
>> > -Scott
>> 
>
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Joe 
Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> 
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > 
Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 8:46:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: 
[Vision2020] Civility is a 2-way street.
>> >
>> 
>
>> > Ted writes: "...given Gary Crabtree was the 
fully
>> > disclosed source of the original posting of this private 
e-mail, in
>> > violation of the 'rule' that private messages not be 
posted to
>> > Vision2020, it is reasonable to assume he might 
engage in the same
>> >  conduct again, correct?"
>> 
>
>> > Gary writes: "Making assumptions based on nonexistent 
evidence is
>> >  generally
>> > ill 
advised."
>> >
>> > Your NAME was on the the posted 
letter. How is that a lack of
>>  evidence?
>> 
>
>> > For the record, I don't think you posted the recent 
letter. But you
>>  did
>> >  post 
the
>> > initial PRIVATE letter -- precisely so your Kirk friends 
could
>>  re-post
>> >  it over
>> > 
and over and over again. So it isn't exactly as if you are without
>> 
>  blame!
>> >
>> > I await your insults, 
fallacies, and evasions. If nothing else,
> they
>> 
>  provide a
>> > source of amusement to the other 
readers.
>> >
>> > -- Joe Campbell
>> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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