[Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

g. crabtree jampot at roadrunner.com
Wed Dec 5 18:07:26 PST 2007

And there we go! Why in the world would I need to devote any effort to making Mr. Muffett look silly when he does such a yeoman like job all by his lonesome. His " I am Spock, resurrected" spiel takes pompous to a here to fore unexplored level and his claims of being on the very verge of becoming a transcendent creature of pure intellect makes me wonder if he gets out of his mothers basement much. (I picture brain-Guy from MST3K hollering up the stairs "Quiet Ma, I'm almost ready to shed this vile carbon based vessel and become a ray of environmentally friendly energy. Bring me another Twinkie and a Sprite!" ) Keep pecking away on that man made global warming obsession you've got going, I'm sure that Al Gore will be around any day to thank you for your efforts assuming you haven't, well you know, transformed. I know I sure am happy you've been on the case. My appreciation is boundless, my amusement total.

Keep on thinkin' the big thoughts Tiger,

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Dredge" <sdredge at yahoo.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street

>> Ted wrote: 
>> Scott et. al.
>> You must be kidding?
> Not at all.
>> You write as though you think Vision2020 is some sort of ghetto gang
>> scene ("street fighter?" "toe to toe?") where making an ass of someone
>> dictates dominance and power?  How pathetic!  The more enlightened
>> readership on this list does not buy into this crude mentality.
> v2020 is an unmoderated list.  The more enlightened readership hits the delete
> key on most of the postings including this one without reading any further (I
> would hope).
>> Let Gary Crabtree "make complete asses out of the both of you on this
>> site," as you wrote.  I''ll just sit back and laugh!
> At this point, fine by me.
>> I am above the sort of irrational nonsense that Gary Crabtree posts to
>> this list, or to that community joke, "wrong-mind.us"  I don't care
>> what he says, if there is no content worth responding to, I simply
>> ignore it as not worth my time.  Ad hominem attacks, be my guest.
>> I've faced this many times before, in rather extreme ways, and if Gary
>> Crabtree thinks he can rattle my cage, "bring it on (God bless
>> conservative hero and professional moron George W. Bush for this now
>> immortal phrase signifying the idiocy of cowboy macho
>> overconfidence)."
> Perfect!  I hope we don't ever again need to read from you or anyone else
> about how unethical Gary was for posting a private email considering you
> don't care what he posts.  But since this cardinal sin is such a hot button
> issue that really gets under your craw, I guess we'll just have to wait and
> see who gets blamed for what wrongdoing the next time HeirDoug or
> (anyone else for that matter) just 'cuts & pastes" from the v2020 archives.
>> I am interested in fact based logical discourse on important issues,
>> in the Truth, not personal ego battles, or moral superiority
>> competitions between morally faulted human beings (as we all are!).
>> Anyone following my responses to ridiculous irrational attacks on
>> Vision2020, aimed my way, should realize this.
> Great!  Start a new thread with a new subject line on some new topic
> more important than this one.
>> The Temple of Reason is where I dwell on this list.  And without
>> radical means of persuasion, I will not falter from this position.
> Good to hear.
>> Come on Gary, make an ass of me!  I'll relish ignoring your every
>> attempt, as I continue to post on more important issues, like
>> anthropogenic climate change.  I know how devoted you are to
>> discovering the truth on this issue, being someone focused on the
>> objective pursuit of knowledge... Well, we can hope!
> Good to hear a couple paragraphs above that you'll be ignoring Gary.
>> Ted Moffett
> Scott Dredge
> On 12/3/07, Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Ted / Joe,
>> FWIW, I'm speaking for Gary because I truly do not want to see him
> make complete asses out of the both of you on this site on this issue and
> I'm trying to explain this in a way that I *thought* would make sense
> to both of you.  Gary's not going to follow your idea of proper list
> server etiquette.  He doesn't give a good God Damn if anyone thinks his
> posting of a private email was unethical.  He posted a private email to
> let everyone know he received it and my guess is that he would prefer
> to receive no more emails like it (or maybe he would like to receive
> them and so he can post them publicly again).  So don't send any to him.
>> Gary can waste his time responding on this but he's going to make
> both of you look just plain bad.  If you want to go toe to toe with Gary,
> be my guest.  Just be aware that Gary is a street fighter and he's not
> going to play by whatever rules you think he should play by and
> ultimately he's going to bait both of you into looking very foolish.  He's
> good at it.  Beyond that, he's not emotionally charged by this issue like
> you and Joe are which is what started this whole foolish nonsense to
> begin with.  He's not the one keeping this thing alive, the two of your
> are along with a little help from HeirDoug posing in drag.  If you want
> this issue to go away, then drop it.  I've got nothing more to say on
> it so I'll just stand back, watch the carnage that Gary dishes out, and
> just shake my head.
>> Take it away Gary, I'm sure this is going to be child's play for you
> but I've done my best to warn both of them...
>> -Scott
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
>> To: Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com>; Joe Campbell
> <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 11:34:29 PM
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Civility is a two-way street
>> Scott et. al.
>> You write as though you are Gary Crabtree's conscience in this
> matter,
>> when you write that "He's more than happy to move forward."  Let Gary
>> speak for himself.  Why are you speaking for him?
>> Also, Joe's recent response to Gary in this thread was correct in
>> pointing out that the assumption that Gary might have posted the
>> recent re-posting of Joe's private e-mail, was not based on
>> "non-existent evidence," as Gary claimed.  The fact Gary originally
>> posted this private message, and has disputed with Joe many times on
>> Vision2020, is evidence to suggest Gary might engage in this conduct
>> again, to undermine Joe's recent post with this subject heading,
>> responding to Atwood's Daily News Op-Ed.
>> Also, your argument immediately below, attempting to remove any
>> responsibility for objectionable list serve conduct on the part of
>> Gary for posting of a private e-mail, is questionable.  It is
> accepted
>> by almost all on this list serve that private e-mail not be posted to
>> the list.  If this was happening with regularity, it would certainly
>> undermine the health of this list, based in part on trust between
>> people for respect for their privacy.  I do not know all the details
>> of the case with Wilson and Morin you refer to, but I doubt the two
>> examples are precisely analogous.  I have received insulting private
>> e-mails from Vision2020 list members (along with a much larger
>> percentage of positive private responses!), but I have never
> responded
>> by posting these insulting private messages.
>> Scott wrote:
>> Sending Gary an insulting email was your fault.  You apologized.
>> Nothing more needs to be said.  Trying to pin any blame on Gary for
>> forwarding it v2020 is as weak to me as Doug Wilson's complaint
>> against Terry Morin for posting supposedly secret documents for the
>> whole world to see Doug as a rotten, lying skunk.
>> ------------------
>> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
>> On 12/2/07, Scott Dredge <sdredge at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Joe,
>> >
>> > When this brouhaha first came to light, I recall you apologizing
> and
>>  Gary Crabtree accepting the apology and saying something to effect
> of
>>  "let's move on".  Gary isn't the one being petty about this and I'm
> sure
>>  he'd like nothing better than to move on to scoring more debate
> points
>>  on v2020 which is something he does very well being the master
> debater
>>  that he is.
>> >
>> > Sending Gary an insulting email was your fault.  You apologized.
>>  Nothing more needs to be said.  Trying to pin any blame on Gary for
>>  forwarding it v2020 is as weak to me as Doug Wilson's complaint
> against Terry
>>  Morin for posting supposedly secret documents for the whole world to
>>  see Doug as a rotten, lying skunk.
>> >
>> > There's not much you can do about Dale or HeirDoug reposting it
> again
>>  and again.  They don't quite understand the whole "I'm sorry, I made
> a
>>  mistake, I'll try not to make the same one again" scenario.  What
> else
>>  would you expect from disciples of a rogue pastor who makes all
> sorts
>>  of ludicrous statements and never refutes them because in his own
> mind
>>  it's a weakness to admit to any mistake (no matter how painfully
>>  obvious)?
>> >
>> > My advice is that when Heirdoug plays this card again - and you
> know
>>  he will because he's not very creative - leave Gary out of the mix.
>>  He's more than happy to move forward.
>> >
>> > -Scott
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net>
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2007 8:46:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Civility is a 2-way street.
>> >
>> >
>> > Ted writes: "...given Gary Crabtree was the fully
>> > disclosed source of the original posting of this private e-mail, in
>> > violation of the 'rule' that private messages not be posted to
>> > Vision2020, it is reasonable to assume he might engage in the same
>> >  conduct again, correct?"
>> >
>> > Gary writes: "Making assumptions based on nonexistent evidence is
>> >  generally
>> > ill advised."
>> >
>> > Your NAME was on the the posted letter. How is that a lack of
>>  evidence?
>> >
>> > For the record, I don't think you posted the recent letter. But you
>>  did
>> >  post the
>> > initial PRIVATE letter -- precisely so your Kirk friends could
>>  re-post
>> >  it over
>> > and over and over again. So it isn't exactly as if you are without
>> >  blame!
>> >
>> > I await your insults, fallacies, and evasions. If nothing else,
> they
>> >  provide a
>> > source of amusement to the other readers.
>> >
>> > -- Joe Campbell
>> >
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