[Vision2020] the plan, Gary (was Trinity Fest protest)
Bill London
london at moscow.com
Thu Aug 9 10:17:16 PDT 2007
Why do I continue to sift through piles of V2020 posts?
To uncover gems of powerful prose like Keely provides to us.
BL
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: g. crabtree ; Andreas Schou
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com ; Joe Campbell
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] the plan, Gary (was Trinity Fest protest)
Nice try, Gary.
The context was evident in my post, wherein I stated -- and reiterate now -- that Doug Wilson wasn't eager to discuss his views on levying the Mosaic civil code (death or exile) against homosexuals once those views became known and once he felt the fire that resulted. He will tell you, Ben Merkle will tell you, Doug Jones will tell you, and Credenda/Agenda will tell you that they don't mean NOW, today, in this particular epoch of history, and how awful that people like me say they do. They don't want to round up my gay friends and kill them now, you big silly. They don't think adulterers today should be peppered with old cinderblock from the silos downtown, and they don't think pedophiles, for example, should be exiled this very minute. Goodness, no! That would make them, well, unpopular. Shunned, perhaps. Maybe even denounced with vigor in the public square.
No, Gary, they mean they want that WHEN they, as part of Christ's church, take dominion over society in every possible way. While I doubt that'll happen, say, while I'm in Denver, make no mistake that they do believe it will happen, and they do intend to bring us back to the law, standards, and sanctions of Moses. I don't believe, by the way, that Jesus intends for their moral vision of the future to be realized in that way, but their rhetoric has a chilling effect on community and a devastating effect on evangelism. But then again, Wilson believes that what most Christians call "revival" is a silly exercise in impotent arrogance or immature pleading, so I doubt that the poisoning of Gospel witness is forefront in their minds.
The fact that Doug Wilson believes the three primary moral evils of our day are represented by feminists, abortionists, and sodomites -- a vicious term I use only to illustrate my point -- ought to cause you some concern. That they have a specific means by which to eliminate these threats in their committed hope for a world under what they believe to be the Lordship of Christ and his people is demonstrable,. If you're a straight, Christian, pro-fetal life white guy, you may not have a problem with it. I'm a straight, white, Christian pro-life feminist, and I do.
I plan to spend the weekend with a couple of hundred committed Trinitarian feminists from all over the world. We'll discuss how to denounce racism, sexism, and classism from the Scriptures, and how to equip women and men to exercise their gifts and callings under the guidance and with the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. We'll hear of communities where "ramped-up Sabbath feasting" consists of a little water, a little rice, a few roots and berries, and where the witness of those believers makes such extravagant Sabbath feasting look downright hedonistic by comparison. I'll meet Third World women who lead congregations and whose work has transformed entire villages, and I'll meet men who sacrificially give to support the ministries of their wives, mothers, and sisters. I'll meet people who know firsthand the bitter sting of persecution; I'll be even less likely when I return to listen to bleating cries of persecution by fattened lambs whose worse suffering is levied upon them by their own shepherds.
keely
"Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me. For of all slaveholders whom whom I have ever met, religious slaveholders were the worst. I have ever found the meanest and basest, the most cruel and cowardly, of all others. It was my unhappy lot not only to belong to a religious slaveholder, but to live in a community of such religionists." Frederick Douglass, abolitionist, feminist, and former slave
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; ophite at gmail.com
CC: lfalen at turbonet.com; joekc at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 07:08:53 -0700
Ms. Mix claims the issue of the death penalty and homosexuality have not been addressed together. From the references I cited:
"On the one hand, we are being attacked for wanting to execute homosexuals, WHICH WE DO NOT, (my emphasis added) and on the other hand, we are attacked for favoring homosexual marriages, which we do not favor."
"Homosexuals commit sodomy, heterosexuals commit adultery, and thieves steal. Welcome to planet earth. But Jesus came to forgive sins. Christ saves sinners, all kinds. Not only that, but He welcomes them into His church."
It would seem that the issue has been clearly addressed. I have to guess that what Ms. Mix means is that it has not been addressed in a manner that she finds personally palatable. Something involving abject apology for a position not held and seppuku perhaps?
g
----- Original Message -----
From: keely emerinemix
To: g. crabtree ; Andreas Schou
Cc: lfalen ; Joe Campbell ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 1:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
No, Gary, your ease-of-search experience does not refute my pious contention that Christ Church has been terribly reticent in discussing its views on homosexuality and the death penalty -- as a single issue. Not "on homosexuality," and then, "on the death penalty," but on "the death penalty as a possible punishment for homosexuality." You work in a field that requires exactitude and specificity; why you're content with deception and evasion posing as a legitimate virtue is beyond me.
I only ask that Wilson, et al, not feign bewilderment when they're accused of teaching ugly and divisive doctrine, and then ask us to accept their convoluted explanations just because they're spoken in English, employ biting wit, or come from the lips of a clergymember or elder. In other words, say what you mean, mean what you say, and take the flack and the accolades that follow.
Pretty simple, eh?
keely
"Were I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me. For of all slaveholders whom whom I have ever met, religious slaveholders re the worst. I have ever found the meanest and basest, the most cruel and cowardly, of all others. It was my unhappy lot not only to belong to a religious slaveholder, but to live in a community of such religionists." Frederick Douglass, abolitionist, feminist, and former slave
> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
> To: ophite at gmail.com
> CC: kjajmix1 at msn.com; lfalen at turbonet.com; joekc at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2007 12:38:01 -0700
>
> Mr. Schou asks as though there were sinister implications to the answer:
>
> Gary, who's been feeding you these links?
>
> Why would any "feeding" be required? C/A is available online free of charge.
>
> Wilson's blog is there for all to see. It has an excellent search function.
>
> Cannon Press has a complete listing of available materials for your pleasure
> on their website.
>
> I hope that this answers your burning question. It was the work of but a few
> moments to obtain the references I listed in my post. My question for you
> would be why would it matter? The simple fact that they exist seems to
> effectively rebut the assertion that CC is " terribly reticent to discuss
> its views on the death penalty for homosexuals."
>
> g
>
>
>
> -- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
> To: "g. crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> Cc: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>;
> "Joe Campbell" <joekc at adelphia.net>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 9:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trinity Festival protest
>
>
> >> Before swallowing Mix, Campbell, Schou, and others of their ilk's
> >> breathless
> >> assertions one would be well advised to go to the source and review what
> >> has
> >> actually been said. Since Ms. Mix mentions Credenda/Agenda one might do
> >> well
> >> to start there. Please see Volume 16 number 2. The entire issue is
> >> devoted
> >> to the topic and nowhere will you see any evidence of the claims made by
> >> CC's usual antagonists. After dealing with that disappointment one might
> >> go
> >> to Doug Wilson's own personnel blog and read entries on 06/01/05 and
> >> 08/30/05, the latter specifically and in detail speaking to the
> >> ridiculous
> >> notion expressed by our resident propagandists. And finally for the
> >> reading
> >> challenged, one can listen to Wilson in his very own voice speak to the
> >> topic on the Cannon Press CD "The Sin of Homophobia" lecture C 03/31/04.
> >
> > Yes, Gary. Why don't we review what's been said:
> >
> > Slavery is a sin. Slavery is not a sin.
> >
> > The Civil War unjustly crushed the South. The Civil War was the
> > judgment of an angry God on a corrupt society.
> >
> > Homosexuality should be punished with death. Homosexuality should not
> > be punished with death. Homosexuality should be punished with exile.
> > Gay marriage is wrong. Gay marriage is the judgment of an angry God on
> > the United States.
> >
> > The United States should be ruled according to Mosaic law now. The
> > United States should not be ruled according to Mosaic law yet. The
> > United States should only be ruled according to Mosaic law when
> > Americans are ready to be ruled according to Mosaic law.
> >
> > Lying is wrong. "Covenental lying," i.e. "lying to those outside the
> > church," is an exception.
> >
> > We consider Moscow a "tactical point." We do not consider Moscow a
> > "tactical point." We don't know what you're talking about.
> >
> > We consider ourselves Christian Reconstructionists. We don't consider
> > ourselves Christian Reconstructionists.
> >
> > Poor Doug Wilson, always being misinterpreted -- and always stuck
> > between appeasing his local critics and not upsetting the
> > mouth-breathing racists who buy his books.
> >
> > Also, Gary, who's been feeding you these links?
> >
> > -- ACS
> >
>
>
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