[Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

Sun Apr 15 11:45:54 PDT 2007

Saundra,

  I think you, I, and everyone else knows that you're exaggerating and your post is more about misguided anger and roomer than reality based. Regular Wal-Marts, which Moscow has, don't stock much of anything because of the limited space and huge volumes of basic staples that they have move for consumer needs. Go to any Super Wal-Mart and you can get all your essential office supplies, including a grease pen. 

  Saundra, as a business owner, would you fill your limited shelf space with items that take 6 months to move and that meet the needs of three consumers, or would you use that shelf space to meet the needs of 10,000 customers in a week instead? Would you like it if it stocked no women's shoes to get more variety of men's shoe? Would you like it to not sell ketchup so it could sell specialty mustards to 20 people?

  See, there is only so much space. Wal-Mart is AWARE of the problem and wants to add more items to its store so you can purchase what you need. However, a group of people in this town blocked them from being able to expand and create the shelf space for items that you and others need. 

  Your attitude seems highly hypocritical and contradictory. You attack Wal-Mart for not carrying all the items you need and want, but at the same time attack and seek to prevent them from trying to expand and address this need of not carrying enough items. The irony is uncanny that the people that sought to block merchants from stocking items the community needs are now unable to find what they need in the community?  

  Make up your mind which argument you want to use against Wal-Mart. Are they too big, or are they too small? Which is it, Saundra?

  Best,

  Donovan

Saundra Lund <sslund at roadrunner.com> wrote:
  Donovan wrote:
"If you didn't block a Super Walmart from coming into town you could get
your grease pens. Wal Mart knows what their customers want, they even know
which customers want what and how many, when, and the price of every other
grease pen in town."

Sorry, but I have to *vehemently* disagree with Donovan on that. In fact,
it's one of the most laughable claims I've read about Wal-Mart. Back when I
regrettably shopped at Wal-Mart (before I started boycotting it prior to the
whole Super Wal-Mart debate), one of the things I *really* disliked about
shopping there was that THE determining factor about was stocked was all
about volume, volume, volume rather what any individual consumer needed. I
cannot count the number of times I'd ask where X had been moved to only to
be told that X wasn't stocked anymore because apparently not enough people
in Moscow bought it, and "Wal-Mart only stocks things that there's a high
enough demand to keep it moving off the shelves in a particular store."
And, no -- they wouldn't order a case of it for me to purchase so they
didn't have to worry about stocking it :-(

Just to clarify, this is the story I was told ***many*** times by Wal-Mart
employees up through management -- do you think they were lying to me,
Donovan? I certainly had no reason to think they'd lie -- these were
members of our community who were helpful and apologetic whenever I asked.

It almost felt like some bizarro bait-and-switch strategy: they'd stock
something long enough to get people hooked and then stop stocking it so
consumers would be forced to purchase something else, perhaps something that
Wal-Mart had a higher profit margin on. Maybe that worked with other
consumers, but all it didn't work with me: when I found something that
worked well for our family & Wal-Mart stopped carrying it, I just purchased
it elsewhere. It was irritating & annoying & less convenient, but it was
really a good thing for me in the long run because I found that lots of
other stores were glad to have me as a regular customer and were more than
willing to provide good customer service by ordering what I needed :-)

Ah -- choice! It's a good thing for consumers, but a bad thing for
Wal-Mart, which is one of many reasons I don't shop at Wal-Mart, Super
Center or not :-)

Somehow, I think the grease pens Mark referred to would fall into the "not
enough volume" category since common cleaning items did: maybe they would
have carried grease pens (although I certainly NEVER saw them there) at some
point, but when enough of them didn't move, they would have disappeared
without warning and without recourse.

Donovan, if you want to continue to sing the praises of Wal-Mart or Super
Wal-Mart, have at it, but at least have the courtesy to keep it real!

JMHO,
Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006 through life plus
70 years, Saundra Lund.  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside
the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the
author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:01 PM
To: Mark Solomon; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

Mark,

If you didn't block a Super Walmart from coming into town you could get your
grease pens. Wal Mart knows what their customers want, they even know which
customers want what and how many, when, and the price of every other grease
pen in town.

Best,

Donovan 

Mark Solomon wrote:

I fail to see how big boxes help local businesses. The Local
Business I Miss Most That Was Pushed Out By Big Boxes (maybe we can have an
annual competition if Hawkins somehow makes it past the legal water hurdles)
is Ken's Stationery, driven out by Staples and Office Depot. Sure, I can buy
paper and ink and all kinds of stuff cheaper now but there are whole
categories of items that can now no longer be found in town. Simple things
too, like white grease pencils that my favorite place to buy wine uses to
mark the prices on their wares with. That merchant now has to go to Spokane
for a grease pencil! Local businesses know what their local customers want
and stock their shelves accordingly. Big boxes know what a national
composite consumer wants and provides those items. Everyone, raise your
glass: Here's to big box cultural homogenization!

m.

At 7:05 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:

Mark,

I didn't say people concerned about water conservation have
to be liberal. I think all people, should be.

Your stance against the Hawkins development is hurting local
businesses. Your stance against a Super Wal Mart hurt small businesses in
the Eastside Mall that were banking on the increase in traffic to the area.

I don't know of any businesses you have supported. Only ones
you are against.

I am surprised you are unaware that Palouse Mall is evicting
small local businesses. The laundry store is out next month. You can also
call Market Time gifts, the Military Recruiters, Hunters, and any other
businesses you noticed disappeared. They are being kicked out or forced to
pay HUGE rental prices. The owners of the mall only want big chain stores in
there. The Palouse Mall can charge whatever they want because no other malls
on the palouse exist.

I honestly think you are harming the community when you pull
this stuff. A Hawkins Mall is the only think that will allow local
businesses equal footing in the retail establishment.

Best,

Donovan

Mark Solomon wrote:

At 6:00 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:

Donovan,

Examine the record instead of "understanding". I was
not involved in any way with the Naylor Farm issue unless you consider
serving on the county's Groundwater Task Force with such other liberals as
Dan Carscallen and Cindy Agidius as somehow related to Naylor (which it
wasn't despite Naylor's allegations to that effect). It would have been
unethical for me to be involved, even if I had wanted to be which I didn't,
as I was employed by the county at the time on the hydrogeological project.
I never even knew James Toyota was moving until I read it in the paper and
certainly have not registered any comments with anyone about that either.
Businesses being evicted from the Mall? Give me a break. I don't have the
faintest idea what you are referring to.

If your test for being unfriendly to business is
telling SuperWalmart to stay out of town, then call me unfriendly to
business. If your test is unmitigated devotion to big box chains over local
businesses, then call me unfriendly to business. But that's the only place
you'll have to stand.

m.

Mark,

My understanding is that you also blocked
Naylor Farms, clay extraction, the expansion of James Toyota, and other
business that are being evicted from the Palouse Mall. You also helped
create a reputation with others that Moscow is not business friendly. Thus
this has resulted in other businesses that won't attempt to open a business
in Moscow.

The revenue saved by cheaper food and retail
items, prescription drugs, etc, could have been used to support other
industries as well and made life a little easier for the poor.

You realize it is the poor, the elderly,
disabled, and minorities that work, shop, and benefit from Wal-Mart?

My high blood pressure would be going
untreated if it weren't for the $3 a month prescription drug that ONLY
Wal-Mart gives.

Wal-Mart is not predatory. It provides high
paying jobs to people. It hires people others won't. It has an overall
positive impact on the economy:

http://www.globalinsight.com/About/PressRelease/PressRelease2439.htm

I believe that Wal-Mart wanted a
Super-Walmart, so it applied in both areas in the hopes that it would
prevail in one.

Best,

Donovan

Mark Solomon wrote:

Donovan,

"Every business you have blocked,
Super Wal-Mart, on down the line"

While I'll certainly take part of
the credit for keeping a predator like SuperWalmart out of town, please tell
me what other stores I have blocked. I can't recall any. And by the way,
SuperWalmart was well on the way towards opening a Pullman store before they
ever even applied to build one in Moscow. As I've said previously (today),
there is 40+ acres zoned and ready to build on in Moscow for big boxes, hate
them as I do.

As far as the research I don't have
time to dig around for: it's there. I've read it and I consider myself a
truthful guy. If you want to refer me to your source for

" retail stores and services near
Super-Walmart do excellent"

and make sure that it discusses
existing mall retail space, not new big boxes, I'll be glad to read it and
continue the discussion.

m.

Mark,

I wish you would make the
time to review your research. I think you would find that retail stores and
services near Super-Walmart do excellent. It is the businesses that are far
away that suffer. When people cannot find what they are looking for at
Wal-Mart, which is frequent, they go to nearby businesses, not to another
section of town. When people are out shopping, they also visit restaurants
and other service industries nearby.

I think the community is
indebted to you and others that attempt to raise awareness of our
environment and the limits of resources. I applaud the efforts of the you,
the city, and many others in reducing water consumption by 15% over the last
two years.

You wrote:

"The City is actively
exploring alternative water sources. Assuming those actions continue we can
as a community decide to spend some of the water capital we've saved on
other uses."

I don't agree that we should
take a socialist approach to business development as your actions and words
seems to advocate. Private individuals have the right to establish
businesses with their own capital that is at risk when invested. Consumers
decide which businesses stay and go by supporting or not supporting the
business. We as a community can establish regulations on all businesses
equally. However, I think those restrictions are so severe that they are
damaging the community while not preventing the extraction of our resources
which you seek to protect because they simple go over the boarder.

Every business you have
blocked, Super Wal-Mart, on down the line, simply moves across the boarder,
and they are still going to extract the same amount of resources. The only
difference is that the tax revenue is going to Washington, Whitman, and
Pullman rather than Idaho, Latah, and Moscow. Why a reasonably intelligent
person such as yourself cannot see that is what is happening is puzzling to
me.

Best to you,

Donovan

Mark Solomon
wrote:

Donovan,

I don't have time
right now to dig out the original cite, but the research that has been done
suggests strongly that rather than drawing new customers to old malls
located by new big box developments they instead are their death knell.
Newer, shinier, prettier, more "hip", etc: the attributes of consumer
culture apply to architectural space as well as personal buying choices.

I was here when the
Moscow Mall opened and you're absolutely correct.. it's been a dud since day
one when it opened almost simultaneously with the Palouse Mall. As you say,
location is everything and being closer to the Pullman consumer is a winner
for the Palouse mall. It is why I support development, if it is going to
occur, on the 40 acres already zoned for motor business behind the Palouse
mall. Depending on the type of businesses contemplated there, water could be
an issue, but it is one that we can address as a community. Moscow residents
have reduced their water demand by about 15% in the past two years in
response to the call for water conservation. The City is actively exploring
alternative water sources. Assuming those actions continue we can as a
community decide to spend some of the water capital we've saved on other
uses.

m.

At 3:44 PM -0700
4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:

Mark,

If you built
the best mall on the far side of the moon would it get much business?
Location is is everything in business and the Eastside Mall doesn't have
much of one. That mall would be bumpin though if a Super Wal-Mart was put
across the street.

You should
have seen that mall when it was the Moscow Mall. You could have fired a
cannon down the center of it and not killed a soul.

Best,

Donovan

And
that somehow explains the, ahem, "under-occupancy rate" at the Eastside
Mall?

m.

At
2:43 PM -0700 4/14/07, Donovan Arnold wrote:

Tom,

Businesses went under in the Palouse Mall because the Mall owners raised the
rent really high so many left. A new mall will create competition and serve
as a check on the lease prices. Also, the mall kicked out many smaller
businesses that are locally owned in favor of big chain stores. Market Time
Gifts was one forced out. The mall owners won't even let Book People in
there.

It would be nice to have a mall that supports local business owners and
counters the over inflated rent prices. This is the free market at work.
One guy jacks his rates to the roof, so another builds one for cheaper.

Best,

Donovan

Tom Hansen wrote:

Building more malls is NOT the answer. How many businesses have come and

gone from the Palouse Mall? And your answer is to build another mall?

That reminds me of a joke:

John and Jerry were buying widgets from a manufacturing warehouse at a

dollar each. To develop and exapnd a customer base they decided to undercut

their competition by selling their widgets at 80 cents a piece.

Sure enough, customers were flocking to get more and more widgets from John

and Jerry. John realized that the more widgets the customers purchased, the

more widgets John and Jerry had to buy from the manufacturing warehouse.

Joh also realized that somehow they were losing money on this venture. John

approached Jerry and asked him what could be done to avoid further loss.

Jerry's response was, "Simple. We will get a larger truck."

Like John and Jerr's predicament, building another mall here in Moscow will

not solve anything.

We need to expand on career-oriented, professional jobs. As more and more

people move to Moscow seeking professional employment in a career-oriented

job, the more appealing another mall will be for retailers who will be

targeting more than just the college-age customer.

Tom Hansen

>From: "Matt Decker"

>To: thansen at moscow.com, donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, msolomon at moscow.com,

> lfalen at turbonet.com, jampot at adelphia.net, vision2020 at moscow.com

>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 13:18:40 -0700

>

>Tom,

>

>I do agree conservation and prevention should be on all our minds. Not just

>water, but also electricity, fossil fuels, and such.

>

>What I can't foresee, is why a company would want to move here. We have

>very little to offer. Very limited businesses, resturaunts, shopping areas,

>etc.

>

>I don't see how adding a costco, olive garden, red lobster, old navy, and

>whatever else comes into mind will kill our "perfect" little town. We could

>stand to grow a little without taking away the soul of our great little

>community.

>

>All of these will help draw in the bussiness types we would all hope for.

>With this current Mayor and council nothing will happen. She will focus on

>getting rid of poeple who oppose her. Instead of worrying about a $134,000

>fine we have now received from the feds. Along with keeping/seeking a

>conservation driven growth policy. Something that is very possible with our

>technology.

>

>Meantime, we lose bigtime money from our neighbors who seem to get it.

>Moscow and Pullman need to both thrive for conservation.

>

>Matt

>

>

>>From: "Tom Hansen"

>>To: "'Matt Decker'" ,

>>, ,

>>, ,

>>

>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

>>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 08:28:24 -0700

>>

>>I have no problem with housing development. As Moscow expands housing

>>development becomes an absolute necessity. Tacking on another

>>mega-shopping

>>center isn't.

>>

>>We have enough shopping malls to support the population of Moscow (as well

>>as Pullman). What we need is expansion of career-oriented professions

>>here

>>in Vandalville. More shelf-stockers and fast-food egg flippers merely

>>doesn’t fit the bill.

>>

>>As professional, career-oriented jobs develop and grow in Moscow, more

>>students will opt to stick around after graduation. Housing developments

>>will increase along with the tax base.

>>

>>Until we can calculate just how much water remains in the aquifer, we must

>>assume a defensive posture.

>>

>>If not, what will we do when the faucets run dry?

>>

>>Tom Hansen

>>Moscow, Idaho

>>

>>"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students. The college

>>students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

>>

>>- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)

>>-----Original Message-----

>>From: Matt Decker [mailto:mattd2107 at hotmail.com]

>>Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 8:08 AM

>>To: thansen at moscow.com; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; msolomon at moscow.com;

>>lfalen at turbonet.com; jampot at adelphia.net; vision2020 at moscow.com

>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

>>

>>Tom,

>>

>>You stated"If we allow unlimited

>> >use of the aquifer by corporate "gluttons", it will disappear and our

>> >citizens will suffer. We must restrict access to our limited water

>> >sources

>> >until another source is identified and put into use."

>>

>>So are suggesting that we stop all houses being built? Maybe even a high

>>tech industrial baised company moving into Moscow? All this while Pullman

>>catapults itself way ahead of us, and continues to drill new wells which

>>draw from the same water source. Thus drawing more business, residents,

>>and

>>tax revenue, most of which is beneficial to the area. Granted, some such

>>as

>>a Walmart I could go without. Along with growth would become more problems

>>too. However, the ending result will most likely create a better community

>>with more options.

>>

>>Matt

>>

>> >From: "Tom Hansen"

>> >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Mark

>> >Solomon'" , "'lfalen'"

>>,

>>

>> > "'g. crabtree'" ,

>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Corridor debate: Daily News

>> >Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 06:05:17 -0700

>> >

>> >Arnold stated:

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >"Mr. Solomon's ideas are not based on economic realities and don't solve

>> >the

>> >water problem, it just prolongs it."

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >So, you are admitting that there is a water problem. If we allow

>>unlimited

>> >use of the aquifer by corporate "gluttons", it will disappear and our

>> >citizens will suffer. We must restrict access to our limited water

>> >sources

>> >until another source is identified and put into use.

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >Arnold goes on . . .

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >"Thinking we shouldn't have stocking and service orientated jobs for

>> >students I think is a bad idea. First, those lower paying jobs should go

>>to

>> >college students, not 40 year olds trying to make a living; somebody has

>>to

>> >ask, "Would you like fries with that?" And I don't think it should be

>> >people

>> >middle aged with Master's in Environmental Science."

=== message truncated ===

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