[Vision2020] [Spam] Re: attacks that really matter

Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 18 12:38:25 PDT 2006


Gary,
  
 Thanks for your remarks and perspective. I always  appreciate it. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you are  not addressing my point. Perhaps it got lost along the trail of emails.
  
  1) I am not talking about not defending people that have been accused  of a crime. I think that is all fine and dandy. I even support the  right of an appeal, maybe even two or three in cases of rape, child  molestation or murder. 
  
  2) I am not stating that I believe that public defenders are evil, or wrong.
  
  What I am saying is here, if you have a guy who has been convicted by a  court of law, the guy admits to molesting these children, and many more  and the lawyer argues the guy has the RIGHT to leave jail, get in a  car, and drive to another town, spend time there, and come back,  completely unsupervised during the travel time--we have a public  defender that isn't defending anyone. 
  
 I don't think that is  even in the best interests of the child molester because they are  placed in a position to re-offend which would result in a worse  conviction. I think it is perfectly reasonable to argue that this  person should be with someone at all times that has been trained to  prevent and limit temptation of the perp. If there is not somebody  available to watch and supervisor this person, they should not be  allowed out of jail. 
  
 I also don't think it is in the best  interests of the defense to argue for early release. Early release  increases their chance of re-offending, resulting in worse sentences  against for the offender. 
  
 I don't think there is a problem  with the law. I think there is a problem with a judicial system that  does not seek the truth but instead has two lawyers squaring off  against each other to see who can win regardless of what is best for  society and the people involved. The people that can change it is the  lawyers. We don't have a system that  is about  truth and  justice, but about cash and the ability to make a good legal  argument.  
  
 As Dick pointed out, I am not arguing  points of law, or legislation so much as I am arguing points of  morality and safety. A defense attorney, public, or private, that  allows a person who has murdered and/or molested the innocent is  committing a grave sin against society just to win a case. Lawyers that  hide behind the law, may do so, but they cannot hide from God and his  law and the knowledge that they released someone that goes on to harm  many others. 
  
 Gary, the difference between you and many  lawyers, is that if someone asked you to unlock a house door so they  could beat their wife or rape a child, you would not say, OK, he paid  my fee who am I to get in the way of this rights. 
  
  Best to you Gary,
  
  _DJA

"g. crabtree" <jampot at adelphia.net> wrote:          D.    I respectfully disagree with your characterization of defense attorneys  as the bad guys in your scenario. When you lock yourself out of your  car or apartment as you admit that you are wont to do on occasion, do  you rail and castigate the dashing and ruggedly handsome locksmith who  comes to your aid? Sunil (another fine figure of a man, dashing in his  own right in his well tailored suit and stylish haircut, but I digress)  and others of his profession are in a similar position. They come to  render assistance to someone who has, potentially, done something  stupid or worse. There are specialists who are wily in the way of  the lock and there are men who can help a fella navigate the corridors  of the courtroom. We all have our place. If you feel that someone has  to absorb the blame for the wrongs that you perceive in the legal  system you might do better to complain about legislators who create the  rules. Lobby
 for a law that stipulates that at the slightest suggestion  of impropriety involving a minor or the vaguest hint of anti-American  activity an unappealable life sentence be imposed. I will not  be joining you in this crusade and, I assume, if you aren't on board  either it's because you DO see some merit in a legal system that has  room for studly stalwarts such as Sunil.
   
  gc
      ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:     Donovan Arnold 
    To: Betsy Dickow ; keely emerinemix ; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
    Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 9:28     PM
    Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [Spam] Re:     attacks that really matter
    

One  way I confirm that I am on track is when the Collective Authoritative  Elitists, who mistakenly identify themselves as liberals in this town,  start telling me to shut up and re-frame from expressing my opinion. 

I  am saddened but not surprised how they are defending the point that  self admitted and convicted child molesters have rights and that  representing those rights and fighting for their unsupervised release  from prison is an honorable profession. It just exposes their true  selves. Letting child molesters and other predators out of jail to do  harm is exactly what is WRONG with this country's judicial system. They  are more concerned about the rights of men that molest little six year  old girls then the little six year old girls. What a sick and twisted  way to set priorities!

Who's fault do you honestly think it is  when a convicted child molester is freed and gets a hold of another  child? Who argued for his release? I will tell you who, lawyers that  think they got rights and argue for their release, that is who. Those  lawyers decide and take those actions. It is messed up I tell you. And  I'll bet $100 that was not what the founding fathers had in mind when  they wrote the Constitution. 

I also am ashamed of their  defense of terrorists that have murderously killed thousands of  Americans, men, women, and children. It shows their total reckless  endangerment and lack of concern  for the well being for this  nation and those in it. Are they on our side? There is a huge question  mark as to who's side they are on. Were they cheering or crying when  the twin towers fell?  I wonder. 

Just once I would like  to hear some of these elitists express their hatred towards others that  have wronged this nation, rather then defend them. Just once I would  like to hear them praise the United States, admit there is a God above  them, and that terrorism is always wrong. They instead declare  themselves as Gods, demand their way of thinking be the only way of  thinking, their form of justice be the only justice even if it results  in the death or molestation of the innocent, and their opinion be the  only one that be expressed.

What I say may be chilling and  dreadful, but it is not slanderous, because it is true, it is true  because that is what is typed from finger tips and spoken from their  lips. 

Best,

_DJA

Betsy Dickow     <betsyd at turbonet.com> wrote:                        Donovan,
       
      You  are more and more shrill and it is chilling to read the slanderous and  dreadful things you think.  Please pull yourself together and try  to be civil.
       
      Yours,
       
      Betsy 
              -----         Original Message ----- 
        From:         Donovan Arnold 
        To:         keely         emerinemix ; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com         ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
        Sent:         Sunday, September 17, 2006 3:30 PM
        Subject:         [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] attacks that really matter
        


Keely writes:

"We fear dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious 
actions of a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in 
wary suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school 
shootings and middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers 
through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence."

What race baiting bullshit! When you are losing on a issue blame it on discrimination?

This has nothing to do with any person's race. It has to do with people being terrorists and
killing other innocent people. Terrorists come in all races.

And for your information, I am too much of an idiot to know what race Sunil is. 
I still don't, and you know what, I don't care. It is
 not the issue at hand. 

And yes, I do think Keely caused the defeat of the MSD Bond. I had
people all over this town telling me, by email, in person, etc,
 they
cannot stand her and that is why they voted against the school levy. Dale Courtney
loves her because she is the one that lowered his taxes. 

Maybe she can link that to discrimination against women, or housewives or something. It
doesn't have to make sense, nothing out of her ever does. 

Best,

_DJA



keely         emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:         People           write me off list or call me to ask why I ever respond to Donovan,           
particularly when he goes off the edge and accuses me of things like           
destroying MSD by turning two-thirds of our neighbors against public           
education -- singlehandedly. (Gee, and I had hoped to use my powers           for 
good, not evil. Bummer it didn't work out that way.           Dang.)

On a more serious note, let me just say that I am           disinclined to respond to 
Donovan when he writes about me, or about           things that have no real 
consequence. But there are things that           Donovan says via Vision 2020 that 
could, potentially, result in very           real consequences. One of them is his 
slanderous attacks against           Sunil Ramalingam.

The political climate of the day is dangerous.           It's dangerous to engage in 
public criticism of our government, it's           dangerous to defend people at home 
and abroad who are victims of any           form of oppression the White House doesn't 
recognize as terrorism,           and it's dangerous, frankly, to be very different 
from your           neighbor. By "dangerous," I don't mean that jack-booted thugs 
will           automatically drag you from your house, or that roaming bands of           
vigilantes will beat you to a bloody pulp. I do mean that there is a           
climate of hatred and hysteria in the U.S. now that makes speaking           out 
against any part of our "war on terrorism" risky to one's           reputation, 
livelihood, and perhaps even one's physical safety in           some communities.

We've defined the "other," and we presume to           know who he is simply because 
of a facet of "otherness" that we           believe we've identified. We fear 
dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern           descent because of the vicious actions of 
a few, but most of white           America would be loath to hold Anglo men in wary 
suspicion, even           though white youths are the ones committing school shootings 
and           middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers           
through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence. Even           people 
I had considered to be liberals acknowledge their unease and           disgust with 
"them" (Muslims, Middle-Eastern men, foreign students,           Sikhs, or anyone else 
who looks, believes, and acts differently           while possessing skin darker than 
theirs), and they do so with only           the vaguest sense of remorse. It is wrong 
in this or any other           political climate to accuse someone of siding with or 
defending           terrorists without clear, incontrovertible proof that that is, in           
fact, true. But if Sunil were, say, a freckled guy named Kevin           O'Reilly, I 
doubt that the sneering accusations would gather much           traction. That he 
isn't a towheaded Anglo guy ought to be neither           here nor there, but Sunil 
has volunteered that he has been called           many ugly things because of his race 
and coloration, and in a           country obsessed with finding "them" -- those 
seemingly           normal-looking people who are really out to hurt us -- such           
accusations of sympathy for terrorists are particularly odious and           
particularly damaging. Read Dick Sherwin's comments earlier today:           the 
idea that perhaps Sunil is showing "his true self" is, frankly,           chilling in 
the context of the day.

I have stated before that           Sunil doesn't need my defense, nor has he ever 
asked for it. I've           seen Sunil twice in my life, and the most recent was 
last month, at           the sentencing of my friend Bob on drug charges. I love Bob 
and I'm           grateful for Sunil's work on his case; more than that, I think that           
the work Sunil does represents the very best part of what makes           America 
different from nations groaning under the burden of fascist,           theological 
oppression. I would be morally wrong to remain silent           when his character is 
attacked -- even if it means engaging with           Donovan. I'm sorry he's as angry 
with me as he is, but he has my           prayers anyway; other than that, I spend 
little time thinking about           it all.

The stakes in this game are high, too high to assume that           the maturity or 
intelligence of the accuser in any way negates or           mutes the effect on the 
accused.

keely

From: Donovan           Arnold 
To: keely emerinemix           , sunilramalingam at hotmail.com,           
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keely -- not a           wielder of great power
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:56:34 -0700           (PDT)

Keely,

For someone that claims they do not care what           I think or say you sure 
spend a lot of time addressing my           comments.

I NEVER referred to Sunil's defense of terrorists in           reference to his 
workplace. I was referring to his defense of           terrorists on Vision2020, I 
think I made that clear, repeatedly. If           you read my entire email and 
clicked the links I provided you would           know that.

As to the defense of already convicted child           molesters, Sunil has already 
stated that he does that. You agreed           that was great and important, that is 
your right, I don't agree with           that.

As to your ability to wield power, I think you have           demonstrated a great 
deal of power to destroy the Moscow School           District and enrage its 
supporters. MSD lost revenue and support to           replace Russell and West Park 
by attaching it to a financially           irresponsible plan, that to me is a great 
deal of power. I haven't           know anyone to turn 63% of Moscow against 
education, but you have           that power Keely.

Best,

_DJA

keely emerinemix           wrote: Donovan,

I couldn't care less what           you think of me, and I'm sure Sunil is not
terribly bothered by what           you think of him. And I am well acquainted with
the definition and           criteria for slander. It is slanderous for you to say
that Sunil           "defends terrorists," particularly given his position as a           public
defender. The context of "defending" is, in this case, that he           works as an
attorney and "defender" of those accused of crimes.           Should you ever be
accused of a crime, I would presume that you would           be cognizant of the
importance of his work.

I am a "master" of           nothing, really, and if I wielded the power to make
people believe           the sun really does come up in the West, my kitchen would be
a           helluva lot cleaner right now, such would be my influence over           the
teenagers living with me. Frankly, the only thing I would do if I           had such
tremendous powers of persuasion would be to offer to meet           with you to
discuss real issues like real adults. However, I suspect           that would be as
fruitful as my clearing my plugged kitchen sink by           inhaling the contents of
the drain, and only slightly less           unpleasant.

keely








From:           Donovan Arnold
To: Sunil Ramalingam ,           vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense           of Terrorists
andConvictedChild Molesters
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006           14:02:45 -0700 (PDT)

Jackie,

I never stated that Sunil           supports terrorism and child molestation, that
is preposterous,           re-read what I wrote. I said he defends those that           do.

Keely,

The definition of slander is the saying of           something that is false and
damaging. If it is true, it isn't           slander. Sunil himself admits to
defending convicted child           molesters:


"It is true that I defend convicted child           molesters at sentencing

hearings that occur after a client has           been convicted by a jury"

Sunil           Ramalingam--
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-September/035436.html


Sunil,

I           am not going to try and argue with you. For you are the master           of
convincing the jury that the Sun really rises in the West           depending on ones
point of view.

I am sure that you can argue           that I got the context wrong in some of 
your
posts, but after 20+           such posts over 2.5 years it is hard to write all           them
off.

FYI, I did support Sami Omar. He was living in UI           Family Housing at the
time he was abducted. I represented Family           Housing in the UI student
government at the time. I defended Sami in           student council and even brought
his family there, which was even           aired on public television. I kept in
contact with John Dickinson           about what was going at the trial in Boise.
That case is different,           because it was a domestic case and there was no
evidence whatsoever           that Sami was a terrorist, in fact it all pointed in
the opposite           direction. Further, Sami was not saying he was planning on
killing           Americans when he gets out like those detained overseas. And,           at
least one member of Sami's family was born right here in           Moscow.

I don't think the government can detain someone forever           without at least
trying to find out if someone is guilty. But letting           them go if they say
"Death to America" is just to risky when they are           capable of acting on it.

My disagreement with you Sunil, is that           you clearly are brilliant, yet
rather than using your talents to           defend victims in our society, you use
your wit and experience to           defend convicted child molesters.

I am not arguing you are not           doing your job, or you are not good at it.
I am arguing that your job           should be something more productive and
meaningful then the release           of child molesters and the scum of the earth
when you know they are           guilty.

I am sure you with your big brain will justify that in           your own mind. 
But
I think anyone with a heart will ask WHY the           child molesters get a good
lawyer and trial when there are so many           other more deserving and wronged
people with their rights being           stepped on. They should be a higher priority
to you and any lawyer           concerned about justice.

Best,

_DJA

Sunil           Ramalingam wrote: Tom,

It is true that I defend convicted child           molesters at sentencing hearings
that occur after a client has been           convicted by a jury (or a judge in
juvenile cases) at the sentencing           hearing and in subsequent legal
proceedings, or at a post-conviction           hearing filed by a client who is
usually in prison. If a convicted           child molester is charged with a new
crime, then I may defend that           person. As a public defender I don't judge my
clients; there is no           shortage of people ready to do this (regardless of how
much or how           little information they have about the crime or the criminal)
and           it's not my place or job to do so. I try to represent them to the           best
of my ability, and I don't apologize for this.

I have           never represented a convicted terrorist as a lawyer, though I           would
were I to be appointed to do so or if I were retained to do so.           I did
represent a witness in Sami al Hussein's case, and am happy I           was able to
offer him assistance. Perhaps Donovan would like to           insult me for doing so.

As one who believes our judicial system           has underlying principles, I believe
that all people who are held           have the right to due process and a fair and
proper hearing. I do not           believe that we have the right to imprison people,
no matter what we           label them, forever, or to try them in kangaroo courts.
This is a           defense of legal principle and human rights. I consider it a
defense           of our country, and the notion that we have enduring principles
These           are beliefs that Donovan neither shares nor supports. He is a fan           of
expedience.

Though Donovan does not support the Iraq war,           he appears to find the Bush
Administration infallible once they           arrest or confine a Muslim. At that
point he believes it is           appropriate to hold that person indefinately. I
find this position           shameful and disgusting, and Donovan finds me repugnant
because of           this, I am willing to live with the loss of his approval.

It is           interesting to note the subject line of Donovan's most recent           post.
He has claimed he only attacks those who attack him. Most           recently he
incorrectly made fun of Keely's spelling; I asked him if           he wanted the same
done to him. Since we all post all too quickly, we           all make spelling
errors, and few of us would really want to have our           own posts criticized for
our typos. This is the point I was           making.

Donovan, in the thoughtful and Christian response we have           all learned so
well, responds by attacking my character in a way that           has the smallest germ
of truth but is intended to be a slur. I have           written him offline and
pointed out that hatred of Middle Easterners           has often resulted in racial
slurs and threats being directed towards           me; I have told him that I consider
his calling me a defender of           terrorists could actually be harmful to me.
You see the effect (or is           it 'affect' Donovan?) my request has had on him.

Of course, this           is the man, or aging adolescent, who has suggested it would
benefit           the gene pool if children were to die playing in construction           sites
that should be off-limits if their parents fail to provide           proper
supervision, so I would be foolish to expect better of           him.

Sunil


>From: "Tom Hansen"
>To: "'Donovan           Arnold'" , "'Sunil
>Ramalingam'" ,
>Subject: RE:           [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists           and
>ConvictedChild Molesters
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006           07:05:37 -0700
>
>Arnold           -
>
>
>
>Your statement, here on a public           listserve, that Sunil Ramalingam defends
>convicted child           molesters and convicted terrorists, reflects upon your
lack
>of           maturity and sense of decency, and in virtually all litigious           circles
>maybe considered           libelous.
>
>
>
>Name ONE convicted child           molester which Sunil has defended!
>
>
>
>Name           ONE convicted terrorist which Sunil has           defended!
>
>
>
>Failing either of these           requests, you owe Sunil a VERY meaningful and 
VERY
>public           apology.
>
>
>
>Tom           Hansen
>
>Vandalville,           Idaho
>


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