[Vision2020] SWISH! Donovan scores again....

Tony Simpson tonytime at clearwire.net
Mon Sep 18 10:29:02 PDT 2006

Congratulations Donovan!  A man is distinguished not only by the friends he 
makes, but also by his enemies, and you have made all the appropriate 
enemies.  The hateful and intolerant terrorist sympathizers and America 
haters on this list are in a snit.  How DARE you disagree with them Donovan! 
Don't you know your place?  Can you be unaware of their manifest 
superiority?  Can you be unaware how pathetic your life would be if left to 
your own free choices, unrestrained by their superior moral guidance and 

Whether it is the smug and condescending, pseudo-Christian Keely, the self 
absorbed elitist, Gier, or Sunil, defender of the sadistic brutes among us, 
you have them all in a dither.  WELL DONE!

In support of the latest victim of  intolerant group-thinkers, -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
To: <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; 
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] attacks that really matter

> People write me off list or call me to ask why I ever respond to Donovan,
> particularly when he goes off the edge and accuses me of things like
> destroying MSD by turning two-thirds of our neighbors against public
> education -- singlehandedly.  (Gee, and I had hoped to use my powers for
> good, not evil.  Bummer it didn't work out that way.  Dang.)
> On a more serious note, let me just say that I am disinclined to respond 
> to
> Donovan when he writes about me, or about things that have no real
> consequence.  But there are things that Donovan says via Vision 2020 that
> could, potentially, result in very real consequences.  One of them is his
> slanderous attacks against Sunil Ramalingam.
> The political climate of the day is dangerous.  It's dangerous to engage 
> in
> public criticism of our government, it's dangerous to defend people at 
> home
> and abroad who are victims of any form of oppression the White House 
> doesn't
> recognize as terrorism, and it's dangerous, frankly, to be very different
> from your neighbor.  By "dangerous," I don't mean that jack-booted thugs
> will automatically drag you from your house, or that roaming bands of
> vigilantes will beat you to a bloody pulp.  I do mean that there is a
> climate of hatred and hysteria in the U.S. now that makes speaking out
> against any part of our "war on terrorism" risky to one's reputation,
> livelihood, and perhaps even one's physical safety in some communities.
> We've defined the "other," and we presume to know who he is simply because
> of a facet of "otherness" that we believe we've identified.  We fear
> dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious actions 
> of
> a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in wary
> suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school 
> shootings
> and middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers
> through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence.  Even 
> people
> I had considered to be liberals acknowledge their unease and disgust with
> "them" (Muslims, Middle-Eastern men, foreign students, Sikhs, or anyone 
> else
> who looks, believes, and acts differently while possessing skin darker 
> than
> theirs), and they do so with only the vaguest sense of remorse.  It is 
> wrong
> in this or any other political climate to accuse someone of siding with or
> defending terrorists without clear, incontrovertible proof that that is, 
> in
> fact, true.  But if Sunil were, say, a freckled guy named Kevin O'Reilly, 
> I
> doubt that the sneering accusations would gather much traction.  That he
> isn't a towheaded Anglo guy ought to be neither here nor there, but Sunil
> has volunteered that he has been called many ugly things because of his 
> race
> and coloration, and in a country obsessed with finding "them" -- those
> seemingly normal-looking people who are really out to hurt us -- such
> accusations of sympathy for terrorists are particularly odious and
> particularly damaging.  Read Dick Sherwin's comments earlier today:  the
> idea that perhaps Sunil is showing "his true self" is, frankly, chilling 
> in
> the context of the day.
> I have stated before that Sunil doesn't need my defense, nor has he ever
> asked for it.  I've seen Sunil twice in my life, and the most recent was
> last month, at the sentencing of my friend Bob on drug charges.  I love 
> Bob
> and I'm grateful for Sunil's work on his case; more than that, I think 
> that
> the work Sunil does represents the very best part of what makes America
> different from nations groaning under the burden of fascist, theological
> oppression.  I would be morally wrong to remain silent when his character 
> is
> attacked -- even if it means engaging with Donovan.  I'm sorry he's as 
> angry
> with me as he is, but he has my prayers anyway; other than that, I spend
> little time thinking about it all.
> The stakes in this game are high, too high to assume that the maturity or
> intelligence of the accuser in any way negates or mutes the effect on the
> accused.
> keely
> From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>, sunilramalingam at hotmail.com,
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keely -- not a wielder of great power
> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
> Keely,
>   For someone that claims they do not care what I think or say you sure
> spend a lot of time addressing my comments.
>   I NEVER referred to Sunil's defense of terrorists in reference to his
> workplace. I was referring to his defense of terrorists on Vision2020,  I
> think I made that clear, repeatedly. If you read my entire email and
> clicked the links I provided you would know that.
>  As to the  defense of already convicted child molesters, Sunil has 
> already
> stated  that he does that. You agreed that was great and important, that 
> is
> your right, I don't agree with that.
>  As to your ability to  wield power, I think you have demonstrated a great
> deal of power to  destroy the Moscow School District and enrage its
> supporters. MSD lost  revenue and support to replace Russell and West Park
> by attaching it to  a financially irresponsible plan, that to me is a 
> great
> deal of power.  I haven't know anyone to turn 63% of Moscow against
> education, but you  have that power Keely.
>   Best,
>   _DJA
> keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:  Donovan,
> I couldn't care less what you think of me, and I'm sure Sunil is not
> terribly bothered by what you think of him.  And I am well acquainted with
> the definition and criteria for slander.  It is slanderous for you to say
> that Sunil "defends terrorists," particularly given his position as a 
> public
> defender.  The context of "defending" is, in this case, that he works as 
> an
> attorney and "defender" of those accused of crimes.  Should you ever be
> accused of a crime,  I would presume that you would be cognizant of the
> importance of his work.
> I am a "master" of nothing, really, and if I wielded the power to make
> people believe the sun really does come up in the  West, my kitchen would 
> be
> a helluva lot cleaner right now, such would be my influence over the
> teenagers living with me.  Frankly, the only thing I would do if I had 
> such
> tremendous powers of persuasion would be to offer to meet with you to
> discuss real issues like real adults.  However, I suspect that would be as
> fruitful as my clearing my plugged kitchen sink by inhaling the contents 
> of
> the drain, and only slightly less unpleasant.
> keely
> From: Donovan Arnold
> To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists
> andConvictedChild Molesters
> Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
> Jackie,
>   I never stated that Sunil supports terrorism and  child molestation, 
> that
> is preposterous, re-read what I wrote. I said  he defends those that do.
>    Keely,
>    The definition of slander is the  saying of something that is false and
> damaging. If it is true, it isn't  slander. Sunil himself admits to
> defending convicted child molesters:
> "It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing
> hearings that occur after a client has been convicted by a jury"
>         Sunil Ramalingam--
> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-September/035436.html
>    Sunil,
>   I am not going to try and argue with you. For you are  the master of
> convincing the jury that the Sun really rises in the West  depending on 
> ones
> point of view.
>   I am sure that you can  argue that I got the context wrong in some of
> your
> posts, but after 20+  such posts over 2.5 years it is hard to write all 
> them
> off.
> FYI,  I did support Sami Omar. He was living in UI Family Housing at the
> time  he was abducted. I represented Family Housing in the UI student
> government at the time. I defended Sami in student council and even 
> brought
> his family there, which was even aired on public  television.  I kept in
> contact with John Dickinson about what was  going at the trial in Boise.
> That case is different, because it was a  domestic case and there was no
> evidence whatsoever that Sami was a  terrorist, in fact it all pointed in
> the opposite direction. Further,  Sami was not saying he was planning on
> killing Americans when he gets  out like those detained overseas. And, at
> least one member of Sami's  family was born right here in Moscow.
>   I don't think the  government can detain someone forever without at 
> least
> trying to find  out if someone is guilty. But letting them go if they say
> "Death to  America" is just to risky when they are capable of acting on 
> it.
>    My disagreement with you Sunil, is that you clearly are brilliant, yet
> rather than using your talents to defend victims in our society, you  use
> your wit and experience to defend convicted child molesters.
>    I am not arguing you are not doing your job, or you are not good at it.
> I am arguing that your job should be something more productive and
> meaningful then the release of child molesters and the scum of the  earth
> when you know they are guilty.
>   I am sure you with  your big brain will justify that in your own mind.
> But
> I think anyone  with a heart will ask WHY the child molesters get a good
> lawyer and  trial when there are so many other more deserving and wronged
> people  with their rights being stepped on. They should be a higher 
> priority
> to  you and any lawyer concerned about justice.
>    Best,
>    _DJA
> Sunil Ramalingam  wrote:  Tom,
> It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing hearings
> that occur after a client has been convicted by a jury (or a judge in
> juvenile cases) at the sentencing hearing and in subsequent legal
> proceedings, or at a post-conviction hearing filed by a client who is
> usually in prison.  If a convicted child molester is charged with a new
> crime, then I may defend that person.  As a public defender I don't judge 
> my
> clients; there is no shortage of people ready to do this (regardless of 
> how
> much or how little information they have about the crime or the criminal)
> and it's not my place or job to do so.  I try to represent them to the 
> best
> of my ability, and I don't apologize for this.
> I have never represented a convicted terrorist as a lawyer, though I would
> were I to be appointed to do so or if I were retained to do so.  I did
> represent a witness in Sami al Hussein's case, and am happy I was able to
> offer him assistance.  Perhaps Donovan would like to insult me for doing 
> so.
> As one who believes our judicial system has underlying principles, I 
> believe
> that all people who are held have the right to due process and a fair and
> proper hearing.  I do not believe that we have the right to imprison 
> people,
> no matter what we label them, forever, or to try them in kangaroo courts.
> This is a defense of legal principle and human rights.  I consider it a
> defense of our country, and the notion that we have enduring principles
> These are beliefs that Donovan neither shares nor supports.  He is a fan 
> of
> expedience.
> Though Donovan does not support the Iraq war, he appears to find the Bush
> Administration infallible once they arrest or confine a Muslim.  At that
> point he believes it is appropriate to hold that person indefinately.  I
> find this position shameful and disgusting, and Donovan finds me repugnant
> because of this, I am willing to live with the loss of his approval.
> It is interesting to note the subject line of Donovan's most recent post.
> He has claimed he only attacks those who attack him.  Most recently he
> incorrectly made fun of Keely's spelling; I asked him if he wanted the 
> same
> done to him.  Since we all post all too quickly, we all make spelling
> errors, and few of us would really want to have our own posts criticized 
> for
> our typos.  This is the point I was making.
> Donovan, in the thoughtful and Christian response we have all learned so
> well, responds by attacking my character in a way that has the smallest 
> germ
> of truth but is intended to be a slur.  I have written him offline and
> pointed out that hatred of Middle Easterners has often resulted in racial
> slurs and threats being directed towards me; I have told him that I 
> consider
> his calling me a defender of terrorists could actually be harmful to me.
> You see the effect (or is it 'affect' Donovan?) my request has had on him.
> Of course, this is the man, or aging adolescent, who has suggested it 
> would
> benefit the gene pool if children were to die playing in construction 
> sites
> that should be off-limits if their parents fail to provide proper
> supervision, so I would be foolish to expect better of him.
> Sunil
>  >From: "Tom Hansen"
>  >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" ,        "'Sunil
>  >Ramalingam'" ,
>  >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists and
>  >ConvictedChild Molesters
>  >Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:05:37 -0700
>  >
>  >Arnold -
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Your statement, here on a public listserve, that Sunil Ramalingam 
> defends
>  >convicted child molesters and convicted terrorists, reflects upon your
> lack
>  >of maturity and sense of decency, and in virtually all litigious circles
>  >maybe considered libelous.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Name ONE convicted child molester which Sunil has defended!
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Name ONE convicted terrorist which Sunil has defended!
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Failing either of these requests, you owe Sunil a VERY meaningful and
>  >public apology.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >Tom Hansen
>  >
>  >Vandalville, Idaho
>  >
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