[Vision2020] [Spam] Re: attacks that really matter
Betsy Dickow
betsyd at turbonet.com
Sun Sep 17 17:34:49 PDT 2006
Donovan,
You are more and more shrill and it is chilling to read the slanderous and dreadful things you think. Please pull yourself together and try to be civil.
Yours,
Betsy
----- Original Message -----
From: Donovan Arnold
To: keely emerinemix ; sunilramalingam at hotmail.com ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: [Spam] Re: [Vision2020] attacks that really matter
Keely writes:"We fear dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious actions of a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in wary suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school shootings and middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence."What race baiting bullshit! When you are losing on a issue blame it on discrimination?This has nothing to do with any person's race. It has to do with people being terrorists andkilling other innocent people. Terrorists come in all races.And for your information, I am too much of an idiot to know what race Sunil is. I still don't, and you know what, I don't care. It is not the issue at hand. And yes, I do think Keely caused the defeat of the MSD Bond. I hadpeople all over this town telling me, by email, in person, etc,
theycannot stand her and that is why they voted against the school levy. Dale Courtneyloves her because she is the one that lowered his taxes. Maybe she can link that to discrimination against women, or housewives or something. Itdoesn't have to make sense, nothing out of her ever does. Best,_DJA
keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
People write me off list or call me to ask why I ever respond to Donovan,
particularly when he goes off the edge and accuses me of things like
destroying MSD by turning two-thirds of our neighbors against public
education -- singlehandedly. (Gee, and I had hoped to use my powers for
good, not evil. Bummer it didn't work out that way. Dang.)
On a more serious note, let me just say that I am disinclined to respond to
Donovan when he writes about me, or about things that have no real
consequence. But there are things that Donovan says via Vision 2020 that
could, potentially, result in very real consequences. One of them is his
slanderous attacks against Sunil Ramalingam.
The political climate of the day is dangerous. It's dangerous to engage in
public criticism of our government, it's dangerous to defend people at home
and abroad who are victims of any form of oppression the White House doesn't
recognize as terrorism, and it's dangerous, frankly, to be very different
from your neighbor. By "dangerous," I don't mean that jack-booted thugs
will automatically drag you from your house, or that roaming bands of
vigilantes will beat you to a bloody pulp. I do mean that there is a
climate of hatred and hysteria in the U.S. now that makes speaking out
against any part of our "war on terrorism" risky to one's reputation,
livelihood, and perhaps even one's physical safety in some communities.
We've defined the "other," and we presume to know who he is simply because
of a facet of "otherness" that we believe we've identified. We fear
dark-skinned men of Middle Eastern descent because of the vicious actions of
a few, but most of white America would be loath to hold Anglo men in wary
suspicion, even though white youths are the ones committing school shootings
and middle-aged white men are looting the pensions of American workers
through Enron and other white-collar acts of economic violence. Even people
I had considered to be liberals acknowledge their unease and disgust with
"them" (Muslims, Middle-Eastern men, foreign students, Sikhs, or anyone else
who looks, believes, and acts differently while possessing skin darker than
theirs), and they do so with only the vaguest sense of remorse. It is wrong
in this or any other political climate to accuse someone of siding with or
defending terrorists without clear, incontrovertible proof that that is, in
fact, true. But if Sunil were, say, a freckled guy named Kevin O'Reilly, I
doubt that the sneering accusations would gather much traction. That he
isn't a towheaded Anglo guy ought to be neither here nor there, but Sunil
has volunteered that he has been called many ugly things because of his race
and coloration, and in a country obsessed with finding "them" -- those
seemingly normal-looking people who are really out to hurt us -- such
accusations of sympathy for terrorists are particularly odious and
particularly damaging. Read Dick Sherwin's comments earlier today: the
idea that perhaps Sunil is showing "his true self" is, frankly, chilling in
the context of the day.
I have stated before that Sunil doesn't need my defense, nor has he ever
asked for it. I've seen Sunil twice in my life, and the most recent was
last month, at the sentencing of my friend Bob on drug charges. I love Bob
and I'm grateful for Sunil's work on his case; more than that, I think that
the work Sunil does represents the very best part of what makes America
different from nations groaning under the burden of fascist, theological
oppression. I would be morally wrong to remain silent when his character is
attacked -- even if it means engaging with Donovan. I'm sorry he's as angry
with me as he is, but he has my prayers anyway; other than that, I spend
little time thinking about it all.
The stakes in this game are high, too high to assume that the maturity or
intelligence of the accuser in any way negates or mutes the effect on the
accused.
keely
From: Donovan Arnold
To: keely emerinemix , sunilramalingam at hotmail.com,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Keely -- not a wielder of great power
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:56:34 -0700 (PDT)
Keely,
For someone that claims they do not care what I think or say you sure
spend a lot of time addressing my comments.
I NEVER referred to Sunil's defense of terrorists in reference to his
workplace. I was referring to his defense of terrorists on Vision2020, I
think I made that clear, repeatedly. If you read my entire email and
clicked the links I provided you would know that.
As to the defense of already convicted child molesters, Sunil has already
stated that he does that. You agreed that was great and important, that is
your right, I don't agree with that.
As to your ability to wield power, I think you have demonstrated a great
deal of power to destroy the Moscow School District and enrage its
supporters. MSD lost revenue and support to replace Russell and West Park
by attaching it to a financially irresponsible plan, that to me is a great
deal of power. I haven't know anyone to turn 63% of Moscow against
education, but you have that power Keely.
Best,
_DJA
keely emerinemix wrote: Donovan,
I couldn't care less what you think of me, and I'm sure Sunil is not
terribly bothered by what you think of him. And I am well acquainted with
the definition and criteria for slander. It is slanderous for you to say
that Sunil "defends terrorists," particularly given his position as a public
defender. The context of "defending" is, in this case, that he works as an
attorney and "defender" of those accused of crimes. Should you ever be
accused of a crime, I would presume that you would be cognizant of the
importance of his work.
I am a "master" of nothing, really, and if I wielded the power to make
people believe the sun really does come up in the West, my kitchen would be
a helluva lot cleaner right now, such would be my influence over the
teenagers living with me. Frankly, the only thing I would do if I had such
tremendous powers of persuasion would be to offer to meet with you to
discuss real issues like real adults. However, I suspect that would be as
fruitful as my clearing my plugged kitchen sink by inhaling the contents of
the drain, and only slightly less unpleasant.
keely
From: Donovan Arnold
To: Sunil Ramalingam , vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists
andConvictedChild Molesters
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 14:02:45 -0700 (PDT)
Jackie,
I never stated that Sunil supports terrorism and child molestation, that
is preposterous, re-read what I wrote. I said he defends those that do.
Keely,
The definition of slander is the saying of something that is false and
damaging. If it is true, it isn't slander. Sunil himself admits to
defending convicted child molesters:
"It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing
hearings that occur after a client has been convicted by a jury"
Sunil Ramalingam--
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-September/035436.html
Sunil,
I am not going to try and argue with you. For you are the master of
convincing the jury that the Sun really rises in the West depending on ones
point of view.
I am sure that you can argue that I got the context wrong in some of
your
posts, but after 20+ such posts over 2.5 years it is hard to write all them
off.
FYI, I did support Sami Omar. He was living in UI Family Housing at the
time he was abducted. I represented Family Housing in the UI student
government at the time. I defended Sami in student council and even brought
his family there, which was even aired on public television. I kept in
contact with John Dickinson about what was going at the trial in Boise.
That case is different, because it was a domestic case and there was no
evidence whatsoever that Sami was a terrorist, in fact it all pointed in
the opposite direction. Further, Sami was not saying he was planning on
killing Americans when he gets out like those detained overseas. And, at
least one member of Sami's family was born right here in Moscow.
I don't think the government can detain someone forever without at least
trying to find out if someone is guilty. But letting them go if they say
"Death to America" is just to risky when they are capable of acting on it.
My disagreement with you Sunil, is that you clearly are brilliant, yet
rather than using your talents to defend victims in our society, you use
your wit and experience to defend convicted child molesters.
I am not arguing you are not doing your job, or you are not good at it.
I am arguing that your job should be something more productive and
meaningful then the release of child molesters and the scum of the earth
when you know they are guilty.
I am sure you with your big brain will justify that in your own mind.
But
I think anyone with a heart will ask WHY the child molesters get a good
lawyer and trial when there are so many other more deserving and wronged
people with their rights being stepped on. They should be a higher priority
to you and any lawyer concerned about justice.
Best,
_DJA
Sunil Ramalingam wrote: Tom,
It is true that I defend convicted child molesters at sentencing hearings
that occur after a client has been convicted by a jury (or a judge in
juvenile cases) at the sentencing hearing and in subsequent legal
proceedings, or at a post-conviction hearing filed by a client who is
usually in prison. If a convicted child molester is charged with a new
crime, then I may defend that person. As a public defender I don't judge my
clients; there is no shortage of people ready to do this (regardless of how
much or how little information they have about the crime or the criminal)
and it's not my place or job to do so. I try to represent them to the best
of my ability, and I don't apologize for this.
I have never represented a convicted terrorist as a lawyer, though I would
were I to be appointed to do so or if I were retained to do so. I did
represent a witness in Sami al Hussein's case, and am happy I was able to
offer him assistance. Perhaps Donovan would like to insult me for doing so.
As one who believes our judicial system has underlying principles, I believe
that all people who are held have the right to due process and a fair and
proper hearing. I do not believe that we have the right to imprison people,
no matter what we label them, forever, or to try them in kangaroo courts.
This is a defense of legal principle and human rights. I consider it a
defense of our country, and the notion that we have enduring principles
These are beliefs that Donovan neither shares nor supports. He is a fan of
expedience.
Though Donovan does not support the Iraq war, he appears to find the Bush
Administration infallible once they arrest or confine a Muslim. At that
point he believes it is appropriate to hold that person indefinately. I
find this position shameful and disgusting, and Donovan finds me repugnant
because of this, I am willing to live with the loss of his approval.
It is interesting to note the subject line of Donovan's most recent post.
He has claimed he only attacks those who attack him. Most recently he
incorrectly made fun of Keely's spelling; I asked him if he wanted the same
done to him. Since we all post all too quickly, we all make spelling
errors, and few of us would really want to have our own posts criticized for
our typos. This is the point I was making.
Donovan, in the thoughtful and Christian response we have all learned so
well, responds by attacking my character in a way that has the smallest germ
of truth but is intended to be a slur. I have written him offline and
pointed out that hatred of Middle Easterners has often resulted in racial
slurs and threats being directed towards me; I have told him that I consider
his calling me a defender of terrorists could actually be harmful to me.
You see the effect (or is it 'affect' Donovan?) my request has had on him.
Of course, this is the man, or aging adolescent, who has suggested it would
benefit the gene pool if children were to die playing in construction sites
that should be off-limits if their parents fail to provide proper
supervision, so I would be foolish to expect better of him.
Sunil
>From: "Tom Hansen"
>To: "'Donovan Arnold'" , "'Sunil
>Ramalingam'" ,
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Sunil and His Defense of Terrorists and
>ConvictedChild Molesters
>Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2006 07:05:37 -0700
>
>Arnold -
>
>
>
>Your statement, here on a public listserve, that Sunil Ramalingam defends
>convicted child molesters and convicted terrorists, reflects upon your
lack
>of maturity and sense of decency, and in virtually all litigious circles
>maybe considered libelous.
>
>
>
>Name ONE convicted child molester which Sunil has defended!
>
>
>
>Name ONE convicted terrorist which Sunil has defended!
>
>
>
>Failing either of these requests, you owe Sunil a VERY meaningful and
VERY
>public apology.
>
>
>
>Tom Hansen
>
>Vandalville, Idaho
>
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