[Vision2020] naming names

Warren Hayman whayman at adelphia.net
Fri Sep 15 12:58:06 PDT 2006

Hello Bill (et al),

Thanks again (unfortunately, for the umpteenth time) for  
clarification concerning this forum. Alas, within basically such an  
open, almost anarchistic framework, there will always be those who  
confuse a soapbox in Hyde Park with a skateboard in South Park, those  
who feed the hand that bites them, and those who perhaps do not think  
well enough or long enough to consider off-list replies as sufficient.

I do not mind, to a point, multiple postings in moderation. My rule  
of thumb in any discourse is that further communication extend, not  
recapitulate, the dialog. After that, off-list or hold the thought  
until later.

The suggestion of no aliases preserves both integrity and honesty.  
Credibility can be, in most instances, hard to maintain in an  
anonymous environment. In such cases, I delete freely.

Name-calling reduces all to the lowest common denominator of the  
elementary schoolyard. No thank you. At the same time, a well-phrased  
insult of the ad hominem variety can be quite witty, but we don't see  
much of that here. We read such phrases as "you suck" instead of  
something like "only the spawn of cuttlefish could arrive at that  
conclusion" and so forth.

As long as I am posting, thanks also for adding the adjective  
"native" before "shrubs" in your post yesterday. Let's extend that to  
trees as well. Exotics in one's yard can be fine, but we should try  
to balance them a bit. I go for at least a 1:1 minimum ratio in my  
own yard, and have yet to be flamed by the local critters of all  

Warren Hayman

On Sep 15, 2006, at 11:15 AM, Bill London wrote:

> Vision2020 is a non-moderated forum.  Like the famous soapbox in  
> Hyde Park, this forum is open to anyone.  Those of us who helped  
> create V2020 hoped that the discussion would be enlightening and  
> positive and help build a sense of empowerment and community here  
> in Moscow.
> There are legal restrictions on speech that do apply, primarily the  
> issue of libel (knowing something is false and writing it anyway  
> with malice of intent).
> Also, anyone who speaks through V2020 should expect that other  
> posts will counter and/or ridicule.
> Other than those basics, the agreed-upon ground rules (as I recall  
> from several years ago) are:
> *maximum of two posts per day
> *posting using the author's real name (not an alias)
> *no name-calling
> As you might have noticed, not all posts follow the ground rules.   
> That is part of the problem of a non-moderated list.
> I do not see why a candid discussion of the merits of any specific  
> business should be off-limits on V2020.
> BL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pennsylvania Place
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 1:21 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] naming names
> I have a quick question about Vision2020 policy. I was taken to  
> task recently for several things I said. What bothered me the most  
> about this dressing down (other than being accused of being "Surely  
> Pissedoff" - actually, I am Jackie Woolf, don't you know?)  was  
> that it is seen by some to be "against the rules" to name names  
> about local "reputable" businesses that I have a problem with.
> Is this not a public forum for discussing Moscow? If I have a  
> conversation with someone on the street, I am not going to say "I  
> got screwed by a certain apartment rental company that misled my  
> family and cost us hundred of dollars needlessly," I am going to  
> say who they were so they don't get screwed, too. If I am talking  
> about a recently closed Italian place, I am not going to say "that  
> restaurant that used to be in the Moscow Hotel," I am going to say  
> "Basilio's." And how, exactly, is it better to say "The place that  
> used to be in the Moscow Hotel" when we all know exactly what is  
> being talked about?
> I am very committed to local businesses - I would say 90% of my  
> "shopping" is done with local or regional merchants. I don't shop  
> at Wal-Mart, or Hastings, or any of the junk food greasy drive-ins.  
> I champion my favorites stores happily - but likewise, I let people  
> know when a local business is not worth my money. Why should  
> vision2020 be any different?
> Someone accused me of bashing anti-Kirker businesses exclusively.  
> Considering I keep being accused of being a Kirker by others, that  
> just makes me feel like I'm getting it in the front AND the rear.  
> For the record:
> 1) I complained about Palouse Properties because they screwed my  
> family, and have screwed several of my friends. Anyone wants to  
> know the specifics, I will gladly provide them.
> 2) I pointed out that I quit going to Basilio's not because I  
> couldn't park there, but because the food was mediocre and the  
> service was crappy. I never claimed it should be a gourmet place as  
> someone seemed to think, but I expect food I pay for to be a)  
> better than "from the can", and b) better than what I would cook at  
> home.
> 3) I patronized Gambino's for 15 years before I walked away for the  
> last time. Gambino's was a special place for my family, but after  
> Pops died it went into the toilet. It was filthy on the inside, the  
> servers (other than one long-time server, I forget her name but she  
> was from Genessee) were terrible, and there were thugs smoking  
> cigarettes outside the front door all the time. I can excuse a lot  
> of faults at an eatery, but I *WILL NOT* tolerate filth.
> So, according to Mr. Crabtree, my complaints about these businesses  
> are somehow directed by Doug Wilson, whose thigh I am stroking as I  
> type this, by the way. Well, Mr. Crabtree, would you like to know  
> that I have not spent one dollar at Bucer's, West of Paris, Live  
> Lovely, or any other place they own? Why? For one thing, I don't  
> like ZEALOTS of any kind, be they religious or anti-religious.  
> Second of all, I don't have the disposable income to eat french  
> food or buy Le Crueset cookware. And I don't like the way it feels  
> to step into a coffee shop dominated by bearded middle-aged men and  
> glowing, skirted young dainties.
> So, what part of the unwritten rules do I not understand? Seems to  
> me vision2020 should be a good place to speak about our COMMUNITY  
> here in MOSCOW. If discussion is going to center on the War in  
> Iraq, George Bush, Global Warming, or Professional Sports, what is  
> the effing point of this forum? We can get all that other stuff on  
> any news or discussion site on the entire internet. If we do not  
> discuss Moscow/Palouse specifics here, we are ALL just wasting our  
> precious time. Or at least I am. Lord knows I would rather be  
> bathing nude with Art Deco and G Crabtree. Preferably at the same  
> time.They are both such manly, dignified men.
> Penny
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls.  
> Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
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> =======================================================
> =======================================================
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