[Vision2020] Debate or Coward?

Fri Oct 6 13:40:03 PDT 2006

I am very confused here.

What is the difference between disagreeing with, arguing against, and urging others to do the same with a point of view, religious, political. social, scientific, etc, AND discriminating against them?  Is merely disagreeing discrimination?

If this thread is to be productive, we might try to agree on the meaning of the key words like discrimination.

If part of this disagreement is semantic, we might make some progress with that part of it.

W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Donovan Arnold 
To: Joe Campbell 
Cc: Michael ; vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Debate or Coward?

Joe,

If that is what you meant, then why not say that. I am willing to bet there are numerous differences in religious beliefs between you and Doug Wilson and those that attack him.

One I can think of is his dispersion of alcohol to children during a religious ceremony. There was big stink over that. 

Another is their believes about homosexuality. I recall you having a few posts in response of that.

Another has been the role of women in Christ Church many of you have attacked. 

Another has been if the Church deserves tax free status, like other Churches. 

Another is Slavery.

Another is Calvinism. 

I do think you bring up a good point though, Joe. I don't ever remember hearing any speeches by Hitler stating precisely any problems he has with Judaism, but I don't think anyone would argue he didn't persecute them for being Jewish. 

If you attack a group of people and use their church as their identifying marker, such as, "Kirkers are", "All Catholics are",  "Mormons have", etc, that is religious discrimination, regardless of how much or little you get into the details of that church. 

Your statement,
"As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all Christians."

Shows a complete misunderstanding of religious persecution and ignorance of the history of religious persecution. For over a thousand years Christians have attacked other Christians, Protestants and Catholics. The actual differences between Catholics and Protestants in practice is so tiny it takes a good long theological debate to find them. 

When you treat any group or people, or person, differently because of a church they belong to, that is religious discrimination. Period. 

Best,

_DJA 

Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
  I have looked at his blog. I've talked to him personally about this and other issues. More to the point, I'm not making accusations about Michael's character that I have failed to even attempt to support. 

  So no, Donovan, you are the one who needs to get clear on these issues. If you want to suggest that all of this is a matter of religious persecution, then please tell me the particular differences in RELIGIOUS views between Michael and Doug Wilson. Or between Keely and Doug Wilson. Or between J Ford and Doug Wilson. Or even between myself and Doug Wilson, for that matter. If you can't do this, then stop making those accusations.

  As far as I can tell, all of us are on the same team, e.g., we're all Christians. I'm not saying that there aren't differences here, I just don't see how one can classify them as RELIGIOUS differences. If you are going to say that they are religious differences, then support the claim in some way.

  --
  Joe Campbell

  ---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

  =============
  Joe,

  Might I suggest you take at look at his blog or ask him yourself.

  Best,

  _DJA

  Joe Campbell wrote: I'm just wondering, Donovan, what exactly are the RELIGIOUS beliefs that folks at CC endorse with which Michael disagrees?

  Best, Joe

  ---- Donovan Arnold wrote: 

  =============
  Michael,

  I really think you need to find a new hobby besides bashing members of a church you disagree with. It cannot be healthy.

  Yes, I am sure you can find lots of outrageous, offense, frustrating, and arguably unfair beliefs and practices of Christ Church. But you know, they are by far not the biggest or worst religion. And they also do a lot of good for the community. 

  Take my church for example. It is headed by a former Nazi who later masterminded a conspiracy to protect the largest number of child molesters in the United States by moving them around from parish to parish. He oppresses woman, and preaches that gays are immoral. He has more followers than any other religion, including in this town. There is another religion that kills homosexuals and launches violent attacks against people that even draw a cartoon of their God. 

  Nobody is forcing you to believe or practice what you want. And likewise, nobody has to justify their personal religious beliefs and actions to you. If you don't agree with their words and actions you are free to join another religion or start one of your own. 

  Best,

  _DJA

  Michael wrote: st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Donavan! What are you saying?

  Story line again:

  Kirkers insult community; Kirkers have big theonomist, take over eschatology. 

  Community critiques Kirkers as any community would.

  Kirkers unable to rationally defend themselves against criticism; they instead lie.

  Kirkers continue to insult. 

  Insults mount from both directions, and through all the smoke, not one meaningful and true response is found from the Kirk.

  This is the story, and this is my point.

  You, Donavan, are becoming more mysterious as the months drag on. But hey, thatÃ¢â,¬â"¢s ok; IÃ¢â,¬â"¢ll still be your friend. Even if you just might have defending the NaziÃ¢â,¬â"¢s against the persecution from the Jews! And remember, I still have friends in the Kirk. Call me ShindlerÃ¢â,¬Â¦.

  Michael

  Michael,

  You wrote:

  "Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative point to be made about the constant and varied public criticism against them?"

  Like I said, I think you guys should just take your case to the city council to require all members of Christ Church be given a giant bright yellow star to wear on their arm so we can easily recognize them.

  Best,

  _DJA 

  Michael wrote: 

  Lucy Jones writes:

  Ã¢â,¬Å"If it's not interesting, you could *advertise* it on V2020 the way other bloggers do who need more

  attention.Ã¢â,¬Â

  I am unceasingly dumfounded at how kirkers can continue to make veiled and slanderous comments even when they are continually exposed for what they are. Just this morning I located another kirk blog linked to my site that revealed yet another misquote. Dale Cortney still refuses to pull an intentional misquote from my blog that has now been up for months. This is amazing. After 8 months, and every kirk attack has been in the form of bald falsehood, nonsensical ridicule, or else strong critique of strawed-man quotes ripped out of context. Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative point to be made about the constant and varied public criticism against them? Outside of the silly Ã¢â,¬Å"persecutionÃ¢â,¬Â ploy?

  As for this quote: this has become one of the steady anti-pooh mantras that kirkers sooth themselves with. So please allow me just this one time to quickly and modestly point out the relevant fact that my readership is as strong as Peter LeithartÃ¢â,¬â"¢s; you might recall how Wilson boasted about LeithartÃ¢â,¬â"¢s blog in his sermon when explaining why he was the truly anointed one in Moscow. Apparently, the kind of Ã¢â,¬Å"interestÃ¢â,¬Â LeithartÃ¢â,¬â"¢s blog gets is evidence for the fact that YHWH will defend the Kirk against its local enemies; I guess I now have evidence that YHWH is routing for me too. In sum, I certainly havenÃ¢â,¬â"¢t sent links to Vision 2020 to keep a Ã¢â,¬Å"neededÃ¢â,¬Â readership (putting aside the claims that I have a mental disorder); I just like local readership more than non-local, given the common topic of my blog (which, by the way, is only about 40% Kirk stuff these days). 

  Dear kirkers, say something true and meaningful. 

  Sincerely,
  Michael Metzler 
  www.poohsthink.com 

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