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<DIV><FONT size=4>I am very confused here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>What is the difference between disagreeing with, arguing
against, and urging others to do the same with a point of view, religious,
political. social, scientific, etc, AND discriminating against them? Is
merely disagreeing discrimination?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If this thread is to be productive, we might try to agree on
the meaning of the key words like discrimination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If part of this disagreement is semantic, we might make some
progress with that part of it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=joekc@adelphia.net href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=metzler@moscow.com
href="mailto:metzler@moscow.com">Michael</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 06, 2006 12:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Debate or Coward?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Joe,<BR><BR>If that is what you meant, then why not say that. I
am willing to bet there are numerous differences in religious beliefs between
you and Doug Wilson and those that attack him.<BR><BR>One I can think of is his
dispersion of alcohol to children during a religious ceremony. There was big
stink over that. <BR><BR>Another is their believes about homosexuality. I recall
you having a few posts in response of that.<BR><BR>Another has been the role of
women in Christ Church many of you have attacked. <BR><BR>Another has been if
the Church deserves tax free status, like other Churches. <BR><BR>Another is
Slavery.<BR><BR>Another is Calvinism. <BR><BR>I do think you bring up a good
point though, Joe. I don't ever remember hearing any speeches by Hitler stating
precisely any problems he has with Judaism, but I don't think anyone would argue
he didn't persecute them for being Jewish. <BR><BR>If you attack a group of
people and use their church as their identifying marker, such as, "Kirkers are",
"All Catholics are", "Mormons have", etc, that is religious
discrimination, regardless of how much or little you get into the details of
that church. <BR><BR>Your statement,<BR>"As far as I can tell, all of us are on
the same team, e.g., we're all Christians."<BR><BR>Shows a complete
misunderstanding of religious persecution and ignorance of the history of
religious persecution. For over a thousand years Christians have attacked other
Christians, Protestants and Catholics. The actual differences between Catholics
and Protestants in practice is so tiny it takes a good long theological debate
to find them. <BR><BR>When you treat any group or people, or person, differently
because of a church they belong to, that is religious discrimination. Period.
<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA <BR><BR><BR><B><I>Joe Campbell
<joekc@adelphia.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid">I
have looked at his blog. I've talked to him personally about this and other
issues. More to the point, I'm not making accusations about Michael's
character that I have failed to even attempt to support. <BR><BR>So no,
Donovan, you are the one who needs to get clear on these issues. If you want
to suggest that all of this is a matter of religious persecution, then please
tell me the particular differences in RELIGIOUS views between Michael and Doug
Wilson. Or between Keely and Doug Wilson. Or between J Ford and Doug Wilson.
Or even between myself and Doug Wilson, for that matter. If you can't do this,
then stop making those accusations.<BR><BR>As far as I can tell, all of us are
on the same team, e.g., we're all Christians. I'm not saying that there aren't
differences here, I just don't see how one can classify them as RELIGIOUS
differences. If you are going to say that they are religious differences, then
support the claim in some way.<BR><BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- Donovan
Arnold <DONOVANJARNOLD2005 @yahoo.com="">wrote:
<BR><BR>=============<BR>Joe,<BR><BR>Might I suggest you take at look at his
blog or ask him yourself.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR>Joe Campbell <JOEKC
@adelphia.net="">wrote: I'm just wondering, Donovan, what exactly are the
RELIGIOUS beliefs that folks at CC endorse with which Michael
disagrees?<BR><BR>Best, Joe<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold wrote:
<BR><BR>=============<BR>Michael,<BR><BR>I really think you need to find a new
hobby besides bashing members of a church you disagree with. It cannot be
healthy.<BR><BR>Yes, I am sure you can find lots of outrageous, offense,
frustrating, and arguably unfair beliefs and practices of Christ Church. But
you know, they are by far not the biggest or worst religion. And they also do
a lot of good for the community. <BR><BR>Take my church for example. It is
headed by a former Nazi who later masterminded a conspiracy to protect the
largest number of child molesters in the United States by moving them around
from parish to parish. He oppresses woman, and preaches that gays are immoral.
He has more followers than any other religion, including in this town. There
is another religion that kills homosexuals and launches violent attacks
against people that even draw a cartoon of their God. <BR><BR>Nobody is
forcing you to believe or practice what you want. And likewise, nobody has to
justify their personal religious beliefs and actions to you. If you don't
agree with their words and actions you are free to join another religion or
start one of your own. <BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR>Michael wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Donavan! What are you
saying?<BR><BR>Story line again:<BR><BR>Kirkers insult community; Kirkers have
big theonomist, take over eschatology. <BR><BR>Community critiques Kirkers as
any community would.<BR><BR>Kirkers unable to rationally defend themselves
against criticism; they instead lie.<BR><BR>Kirkers continue to insult.
<BR><BR>Insults mount from both directions, and through all the smoke, not one
meaningful and true response is found from the Kirk.<BR><BR>This is the story,
and this is my point.<BR><BR>You, Donavan, are becoming more mysterious as the
months drag on. But hey, that’s ok; I’ll still be your friend.
Even if you just might have defending the Nazi’s against the
persecution from the Jews! And remember, I still have friends in the Kirk.
Call me Shindler….<BR><BR>Michael<BR><BR><BR>Michael,<BR><BR>You
wrote:<BR><BR>"Does not anyone at the Kirk have a rational, argumentative
point to be made about the constant and varied public criticism against
them?"<BR><BR>Like I said, I think you guys should just take your case to the
city council to require all members of Christ Church be given a giant bright
yellow star to wear on their arm so we can easily recognize
them.<BR><BR>Best,<BR><BR>_DJA <BR><BR>Michael wrote: <BR><BR>Lucy Jones
writes:<BR><BR><BR><BR>“If it's not interesting, you could *advertise*
it on V2020 the way other bloggers do who need
more<BR><BR>attention.â€<BR><BR><BR>I am unceasingly dumfounded at how
kirkers can continue to make veiled and slanderous comments even when they are
continually exposed for what they are. Just this morning I located another
kirk blog linked to my site that revealed yet another misquote. Dale Cortney
still refuses to pull an intentional misquote from my blog that has now been
up for months. This is amazing. After 8 months, and every kirk attack has been
in the form of bald falsehood, nonsensical ridicule, or else strong critique
of strawed-man quotes ripped out of context. Does not anyone at the Kirk have
a rational, argumentative point to be made about the constant and varied
public criticism against them? Outside of the silly “persecutionâ€
ploy?<BR><BR>As for this quote: this has become one of the steady anti-pooh
mantras that kirkers sooth themselves with. So please allow me just this one
time to quickly and modestly point out the relevant fact that my readership is
as strong as Peter Leithart’s; you might recall how Wilson boasted
about Leithart’s blog in his sermon when explaining why he was the
truly anointed one in Moscow. Apparently, the kind of “interestâ€
Leithart’s blog gets is evidence for the fact that YHWH will defend the
Kirk against its local enemies; I guess I now have evidence that YHWH is
routing for me too. In sum, I certainly haven’t sent links to Vision
2020 to keep a “needed†readership (putting aside the claims that
I have a mental disorder); I just like local readership more than non-local,
given the common topic of my blog (which, by the way, is only about 40% Kirk
stuff these days). <BR><BR>Dear kirkers, say something true and meaningful.
<BR><BR>Sincerely,<BR>Michael Metzler <BR>www.poohsthink.com
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