[Vision2020] Martyr

Tue Nov 21 11:29:00 PST 2006

Mr. Gier,

Where in the post does it say "any biblical justification for killing" 
I only said that Calvin testified as what was heresy not what the 
punishment for it was. You again continue to espouse a false hood that 
Calvin had anything to do with the death of Servetus. Your intimation 
that "thousands upon thousands" of lives lost at the hands of the 
Trinitarians, over the lukewarmness of the Unitarians, is just another 
of your impotent charges against the Gospel. Your just sooting blanks, 
cowboy!

Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: ngier at uidaho.edu
To: heirdoug at netscape.net
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Martyr

Greetings:

If Calvin had not been in Geneva, the probability of Servetus being 
arrested and burned would have been very low.  I gladly corrected my 
earlier error that Calvin lit the fire, and then challenged Ben to 
request that his father-in-law correct his errors.  Of course there was 
no reciprocity on that point, because Kirkers moved of by an unholy 
spirit do not make errors.

Yes, Calvin was not a citizen of Geneva, but as the theological head of 
the community, he always got what he wanted. Ever since Servetus had 
failed to show up for a debate on the Trinity in Paris, Calvin had been 
"gunning" for him and he made sure that he was killed for his 
theological "mistakes."  Right at the last, Calvin did plead for 
beheading, as Servetus had requested, but the city fathers knew very 
well that burning heretics alive (over a slow fire) was the only way to 
eliminate those of Wrong Mind by those who have Right Mind.

Contrary to what is posted here, Calvin could not possibly find any 
biblical justification for killing a heretic.  The New Testament 
punishment for "wrong" belief was banishment not death.  As Ralph 
always says: Read your Bibles for Heaven's Sake!

If the religious liberalism of early Unitarianism had won out, Europe 
would have been spared thousands upon thousands of lives and the 
massive destruction of farms and cities, all because of "right-minded" 
Christians killing one another. 

The world had to wait 250 years for Unitarian inspired Americans to 
write a Constitution protecting people's freedom to believe or not to 
believe.  As the Episcopal Bishop Bird Wilson said in October, 1831: 
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a 
professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."

Ralph,

I'm glad that you brought this back up. Both you and Nick cannot seem 
to get the facts correct in this case (and with 37 years of accurate 
writing). Ben Merkle pointed these things out to Nick previously. Maybe 
Nick can post the emails on his university owned blog site.

It was the city council that bbq'd Servetus. It was the city council 
that held the trial. It was the court that found him guilty. And it was 
the city sheriff that carried out the sentence.

Calvin was only called as an expert witness at his trial. (I will get 
the citation for his testimony later) Calvin was called to testify 
about what constitutes heresy from a biblical perspective. Calvin was 
not even a voting member of the magisterial.

Go back to quoting scripture. Maybe you'll find one that applies to you.

-----Original Message-----
From: nielsen at uidaho.edu
To: heirdoug at netscape.net; sslund at adelphia.net
Cc: ngier at uidaho.edu
Sent: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 10:25 AM
Subject: Martyr

Doug,

Are you referring to people like the Unitarian Michael Servetus, who 
was barbecued alive by the Trinitarian John Calvin?

Ralph

[Vision2020] Quote of Interest

heirdoug at netscape.net heirdoug at netscape.net
Tue Nov 21 07:28:42 PST 2006

Mrs. Lund,

You forget that it also is a term of contempt for a juvenile first form
classmate, as well as, what those who hated the truth piled at the
martyr's feet just before they burned them at the stake!
________________________________________________________________________ 

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"Truth is the summit of being; justice is the application of it to 
human affairs."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

"Abstract truth has no value unless it incarnates in human beings who 
represent it, by proving their readiness to die for it."
 --Mohandas Gandhi

"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be 
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each 
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and 
on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our 
intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between 
science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum 
of its various parts." --Max Planck

Nicholas F. Gier
Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/home.htm
208-882-9212/FAX 885-8950
President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/ift.htm

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