[Vision2020] Tet Offensive

[Tony]

Paul, how is your morning?  Coooold up there I'll bet.  Yeah, you were 
generalizing - it's cool though - don't we all?  I've always wanted to 
armchair generalize... (snicker snicker)

I just feel that when dealing with a clearly sociopathic and widespread 
enemy, we are unfortunately going to find ourselves in a position of 
utilizing unconventional methods in order to prevail.  Distasteful, yes, but 
is failure an option when dealing with these murderous ragheads?  What would 
General Washington have advised?  General Grant or Sherman?  General Mac 
Arthur or Patton?  Or perhaps Abe Lincoln, who presided over our country's 
most horrific bloodshed in order to achieve a long term peace?

Have we lost the will to assert our strength for the long term benefit of 
mankind on Earth?  Do we so distrust ourselves and this grand experiment? 
Does our untethered heart find itself blown hither and yon by an 
unpredictable and gusty political wind?  Are we so fickle as to desert those 
who led us courageously through the smoke after 911?

As for Iraq, Paul, I don't think the question of Hussein's involvement with 
terrorists can be so cavalierly dismissed.  Nor do I think Bush & company 
should be slow roasted for acting on intelligence that the democrats 
themselves concluded was very troubling.  It was a bi-partisan decision to 
pursue Saddam, after all.  And clear purpose?  What about freedom? 
Democracy?  The rule of law?  Granted, Paul, such concepts are foreign to 
uneducated, third worlders, but should ignorance deprive them of the 
opportunity to live as their God intended,  cooperating with one another and 
progressing with the bulk of the world in relative peace and prosperity?

Your spot on Paul, that trying to save lives and save our economy are both 
patriotic values.  And I accept from the tone of your posts that you are 
sincere in that wish but simply find other solutions more palatable.  I 
respect you for that and find your reasoned approach and gracious posture 
during this dialog to be refreshing as it contrasts with that of some on the 
left.

Cordially,   -Tony
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive


> Tony,
>
> You're right, you never said "willing to kill anyone and everyone".  I
> was generalizing.  You did appear to be arguing that we were being too
> soft when we didn't immediately bomb a mosque that had a known terrorist
> in it.  I remember other times that you have indicated that liberals are
> weak for not being more aggressive in this war.
>
> The people that you call either "muddle headed" or "(sharing) the goals
> of America's enemies" are, in my view, simply trying to put the country
> back on course.  It has been shown that Iraq had nothing to do with
> 9/11, nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, and nothing to do with WMDs.  So why
> sink a billion dollars a day into a war that should by all rights never
> have been started, but which is now causing as much violence as it hoped
> to stop?  Why expose our troops to death and destruction when there is
> no clear purpose in mind?
>
> Trying to save lives and save our economy are both patriotic values.  I
> think many of these people deserve more respect than that.
>
> Paul
>
> Tony wrote:
>
>> Paul, you misunderstand.  I do not take the position that ALL liberals
>> are disloyal and share the goals of America's enemies, just that the
>> bulk of them do.  Some are simply too muddle headed in their
>> thinking.  This does not make them the enemy, but merely to be pitied
>> as an unintentional part of the problem.
>>
>> You may wish to re-read my post.  I never said that conservatives are
>> "willing to kill anyone and everyone."  What I clearly said was that
>> they have the ability to be realistic and recognize that sometimes one
>> must sacrifice a few to save many.  Is this so complicated?
>>
>> If one's choice to avoid collateral damage at all costs results in the
>> loss of an even greater number of his own countryman, can he claim to
>> be either wise OR strong?
>>
>> Pragmatically yours,      -T
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Rumelhart"
>> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:01 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Tet Offensive
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> Your observation about the coverage of the mosque in Fallujah where
>>>> Al-Zar
>>>> punk-boy was hiding was also correct.  We should have ignored the
>>>> collaborating subversives in our media and allowed the generals to
>>>> blast the
>>>> bastard, mosque and all, right into Allah's lap.  This only sounds
>>>> bad to
>>>> those who haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to achieve
>>>> victory or
>>>> the sense to defer to those who do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm tired of these two basic assertions that I keep seeing.  One is that
>>> the "liberals" are somehow unloyal and unamerican, as you seem to be
>>> implying here by calling them "collaborating subversives in our media".
>>> The other is that a lack of total willingness to kill anyone and
>>> everyone is some form of weakness, as you seem to imply when you say
>>> that liberals "haven't the stomach for what is unavoidable to achieve
>>> victory or the sense to defer to those who do".
>>>
>>> We will never have a reasonable debate here if these issues are not
>>> addressed, in my opinion.
>>>
>>> To start with, I will claim that many of the "liberals" care as deeply
>>> about their country as you do.  I will also claim that the ability to
>>> show mercy or to abstain from killing from a position of strength is a
>>> sign of power, not weakness.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
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