[Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death PenaltyMustBe Aboli...

Thu May 4 15:10:23 PDT 2006

What Wayne speaks of below has been mystifying me for awhile also. Where has this new (and I might say rather ugly) version of pseudo Christianity spawned from?

 I was skipping through the channels and found an evangelical preacher who was ranting and raving about the virtues of accruing wealth for oneself. I listen to other evangelical millionaire ministers spouting off about how these people or those people should be killed. So much of what they say is crap from the Old Testament. How about that goofy group of insane Baptists going around bad mouthing soldier's funerals because of some misdirected hate of same sex relationships? It seems that many ministers of today should return to Bible school. It is enough for any rational parent to keep their children away from organized religion.

 I see the mainstream churches teaching: meanness, greed, selfishness, and intolerance instead of kindness, love, generosity, humility and tolerance. Jesus was supposed to have brought the Good Word to us, why isn't the church spreading that word any more? Christianity is losing Christ or at least a great number of people posing as Christians have lost the way. Just like DW trying to convince St Peter to let him bring his hoarded booty into heaven, all who call themselves Christians but don't behave as such will have to pay the piper eventually.

I don't really give a hoot about what all of the crackpots want to call Christianity nowadays, but it is very mystifying to me where this has evolved from. What happened to the teachings of Christ?

James  

From: deco at moscow.comTo: vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death PenaltyMustBe Aboli...Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 13:04:06 -0700

Tom quotes:

"As I read the New Testament, I don't see anywhere in there that killing bad people is a very high calling for Christians. I see an awful lot about redemption and forgiveness."   -- James W.L. Park, former execution officer, San Quentin, California 

Isn't it fascinating (especially for non-believers like myself) how some of those that strongly, while evincing such prideful superiority, parade themselves as Christians (including but not limited to the prisoners of the Wilson & Family's Cult & Cash Machine) like to justify their cruelty, selfishness, and abject lack of humility by quoting the old testament instead of the Gospels of Christ.

To such:  Hello!  

Wasn't Christ trying to bring humankind a new way, one in rebellion to the harsh, barbaric, inconsistent application of the old laws found in the Old Testament?  Where does Christ speak of punishment, and what does he say?  Hint: See below.  

If you think you are a Christian, take your choice:  Apply the laws of the Old Testament and the penal proscriptions thereof and know that by the clear words of Christ you have a heretical, non-Christian belief, or be a Christian and condemn the "eye for an eye" moral imperative as Christ does.

[Or you can be a non-believer and see capital punishment as a much more complex issue than following unverifiable superstition.  However, If you allege yourself to be a Christian, then Christ's word's on capital punishment (and all other moral subjects) is binding, definitive, and all-inclusive.  It would be unchristian/heretical for a true Christian to consider relevant or persuasive other than the words of Christ any other argument including the many secular arguments on this subject.]
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

PS.  I find it truly interesting that many of those who purport to be Christians on this forum (and elsewhere) seem to be utterly unable to follow the simple dictum of Christ cited below:  Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for [not for yourselves, but] those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you...

For the reading challenged:  The second quote cited below is in complete contravention to the stone to death for adultery proscriptions of the Old Testament. 

____________________________________________________________________________

Matthew 5:38 – 48  Young's Literal Translation of the Bible

[The alleged words of Christ are in red.]

38   ‘Ye heard that it was said: Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth;

39   but I—I say to you, not to resist the evil, but whoever shall slap thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other;

40   and whoever is willing to take thee to law, and thy coat to take—suffer to him also the cloak.

41   ‘And whoever shall impress thee one mile, go with him two,

42   to him who is asking of thee be giving, and him who is willing to borrow from thee thou mayest not turn away.

43   ‘Ye heard that it was said: Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and shalt hate thine enemy;

44   but I—I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those cursing you, do good to those hating you, and pray for those accusing you falsely, and persecuting you,

45   that ye may be sons of your Father in the heavens, because His sun He doth cause to rise on evil and good, and He doth send rain on righteous and unrighteous.

46   ‘For, if ye may love those loving you, what reward have ye? do not also the tax-gatherers the same?

47   and if ye may salute your brethren only, what do ye abundant? do not also the tax-gatherers so?

48   ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

__________________________________________________________

John 8  Young's Literal Translation of the Bible

1     And at dawn he came again to the temple,

2     and all the people were coming unto him, and having sat down, he was teaching them;

3     and the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman having been taken in adultery, and having set her in the midst,

4     they say to him, ‘Teacher, this woman was taken in the very crime—committing adultery,

5     and in the law, Moses did command us that such be stoned; thou, therefore, what dost thou say?’

6     and this they said, trying him, that they might have to accuse him.  And Jesus, having stooped down, with the finger he was writing on the ground,

7     and when they continued asking him, having bent himself back, he said unto them, ‘The sinless of you—let him first cast the stone at her;’

8     and again having stooped down, he was writing on the ground,

9     and they having heard, and by the conscience being convicted, were going forth one by one, having begun from the elders—unto the last; and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10   And Jesus having bent himself back, and having seen no one but the woman, said to her, ‘Woman, where are those—thine accusers?  Did no one pass sentence upon thee?’

11   and she said, ‘No one, Sir;’ and Jesus said to her, ‘Neither do I pass sentence on thee; be going on, and no more sin.’

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Tom Hansen 
To: ToeKneeTime at aol.com ; joekc at adelphia.net 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death PenaltyMustBe Aboli...

Take a look at the countries listed under “Death Penalty Permitted” at

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html

Not exactly a stellar group of moral mentors, huh?

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of ToeKneeTime at aol.comSent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 11:24 AMTo: joekc at adelphia.netCc: vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Only the short sighted think Death Penalty MustBe Aboli...

Joe,

Couple good questions, here we go.

The logic that the death penalty does not deter violent crime because America has capital punishment and also has high rates of violent crime, ignores 2 important points.  1)  This country has no realistic program for capital punishment.  Offenders languish on death row for more than a decade in many cases.  Were justice rendered more swiftly, we might see a corresponding decrease in violent crime.  2)  Your argument sounds awfully close to an ad hoc ergo prompter hoc fallacy.  Could there not be other factors at work in this scenario?

Regarding my comparison between lives saved by capital punishment verses the elimination of an occasional inappropriately applied execution:  It is just inconceivable that the very small number of innocents executed by the state could possibly come close to the number of future victims of predators spared execution.  It is silly to demand studies in support of the blatantly obvious.

You misquote me when you say that I regard it as "OK" that an occasional innocent should be executed.  I of course never said that.  I regard it as a tragic but unavoidable consequence of the administering of justice by fallible human beings.

With regard to my Mom's money,  I spent it pursuing something far more important than logic:  Booze and broads.

Making Mommy proud,  --Tony

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