[Vision2020] Borah Symposium:Three Disastrous Years in Iraq
Matt Decker
mattd2107 at hotmail.com
Tue Mar 21 17:43:25 PST 2006
Art,
What about Yugoslavia, Csech republic?
>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Borah Symposium:Three Disastrous Years in Iraq
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 15:55:19 -0800
>
>Doesn't anyone remember when this was last tried in large -- the creation
>of an Israeli state?
>
>Without debating the justification of that decision, it is clear that such
>actions, especially when ill-planned, only serve to increase hate and
>strife. They are solutions that lead to much greater, perhaps almost
>unsolvable problems.
>
>Are we the gods of the universe whose mission is to destroy/create/change
>physical/political entities wherever it suits our fancy? {And to ignore
>hellish human genocide/mind-numbing suffering whenever convenient like
>presently in the Sudan?}
>
>W.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ted Moffett
>To: Matt Decker
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:32 PM
>Subject: [Vision2020] Borah Symposium:Three Disastrous Years in Iraq
>
>
>All:
>
>Dividing Iraq into Kurd, Sunni, and Shite "independent" states would not
>solve the problems. These separate entities would fight each other over
>access to oil fields, and continue their tribal and religious strife. And
>US alley Turkey does not want an empowered Kurdish state on their border,
>while the US does not want to push southern Iraq to ally itself more with
>Iran, who already is influencing southern Iraq.
>
>Offering each group a semi-autonomous governing region within a united Iraq
>is another option, but why would this work when the separate state option
>would not?
>
>But we should back up and ask if the problems there are really ours to
>solve for them. What if some nation decided they needed to solve our
>nation's problems during our civil war that killed half a million in the US
>out of a much smaller population than now? Would we have wanted France or
>England to invade and force the north and the south to stop fighting and
>form some sort of new peaceful government? Even if the US expressed what
>brutal monsters they were in the death and suffering of the US Civil War,
>fought in part over the human rights abuses of slavery, if another nation
>had invaded to solve our problems, however well intentioned, I think they
>would have faced an impossible situation.
>
>Isn't it wise to sometimes let nations solve their own internal problems
>rather than thinking military force can mandate that everyone to play nice?
> Wouldn't a policy that aimed at toppling Saddam from within, using the
>resources and will of the Iraq people, have been more wise? It was obvious
>to many that the Iraq invasion to democratize Iraq, even assuming the most
>noble aims, was a huge gamble, given the tribal and religious strife
>endemic to that area.
>
>It is often stated that just as the US maintained a military presence in
>Germany and Japan post WWII for various reasons, we must militarily stay in
>Iraq for similar reasons. But of course Japan and Germany had occupied
>huge areas of the world in an attempt at world domination. Germany
>attacked, conquered and occupied US allies, and Japan attacked Pearl Harbor
>and the US Navy. Iraq was not threatening the US in an alliance aimed at
>world domination. And even Bush is now going public stating that Saddam
>and Iraq were not tied to 9/11. Also, the invasion of Kuwait had been
>repelled and Iraq militarily was devastated after that war. And Saddam was
>not liked by Al Queda, who viewed him as a sort of Islamic heretic.
>
>It would be wonderful if the US could militarily police the world removing
>dictators and improving human rights as a general policy, but in some cases
>military meddling in other nation's internal strife can result in a worse
>outcome, which appears to be happening in Iraq.
>
>This is a lose-lose-lose-lose scenario, whether we increase our forces
>(yes, some insist this is what is needed to really stop the insurgency and
>police Iraq), stay as now, withdraw slowly turning security over to Iraq,
>waiting on the sidelines ready to re-invade if things get out of control,
>or withdraw more permanently, there are lots of options, but none that are
>a good solution.
>
>But we won't totally withdraw... this option should not even be
>realistically considered. The US intends to keep permanent military bases
>in Iraq. The US will need them for the future oil wars.
>
>The Borah Symposium next week should be interesting, given it focuses on
>resource and/or oil wars.
>
>http://www.martin.uidaho.edu/borah/2006_symposium.html
>
>http://www.martin.uidaho.edu/borah/
>
>
>Ted Moffett
>
>
>
>On 3/20/06, Matt Decker <mattd2107 at hotmail.com > wrote:
> Mr Gier,
>
> I have to applaud your well written theory below. I would have to agree
>with
> a lot of which you have stated. What might you think we do though. I
>really
> think pulling out within the next 2-4 months would do more damage then
>not.
> What about dividing up that county. Shites ,Sunnis, and Kurds obviously
> can't get along, well at least the Shites and Sunnis? Call me crazy but
>I
> say divide it up and get out.
>
> Thoughts
> Matt
>
>
> >From: nickgier at adelphia.net
> >To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: [Vision2020] Three Disastrous Years in Iraq
> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:05:23 -0500
> >
> >Greetings:
> >
> >My KRFA radio commentary this week will be drawn from the longer column
> >below.
> >I've attached it as a Word file for those who say that my postings
>always
> >come
> >up blanks. Tony goes off half-cocked and I draw blanks. It just aint'
> >fair.
> >
> >Nick Gier
> >
> >WOULD SADDAM HAVE BEEN BETTER?
> >THREE DISASTROUS YEARS IN IRAQ
> >
> >Iraq has passed through three years that are the worst in its history.
> >--Baghdad resident Munthir Rasheed
> >
> >by Nick Gier, Emeritus Professor, University of Idaho
> >
> > President Bush has predicted that 75 percent of Iraq will soon
>be
> >controlled by
> >Iraqi forces. What he does not tell us is that the loyalty of these
>police
> >and
> >army units is uncertain because of ethnic and religious divisions.
> >
> > In his war anniversary speech Bush lauded the progress of a town
>called
> >Tall
> >Afar. Last month reporter Laurence Kaplan was coming into Tall Afar
>with an
> >U.S.
> >Army convoy when he witnessed heavy gun fire. He assumed that it was
>an
> >insurgent attack, but it turned out that it was a skirmish between the
> >local
> >police, mostly Sunnis, and the Iraqi Army, primarily Shias and Kurds.
> >
> >The Kurds in North, 90 percent of whom recently voted for an
>independent
> >state,
> >still hold their Peshmarga forces (at least 50,000) under their own
> >command, and
> >it is only a matter of time before they take over the largest oil
>fields in
> >the
> >country.
> >
> >Even more troublesome are the Shia militias, who, with close ties to
>Iran,
> >control many areas of Iraq. Moqtada al-Sadr, with whom the U.S. fought
> >pitched
> >battles in 2004, recently returned from a trip to Tehran where his
>Iranian
> >sponsors promised continued support for his 10,000-man Mahdi Army. (It
>was
> >only
> >about 600 men in 2003.) Al-Sadr has made his loyalties clear: "The
>Madhi
> >Army is
> >beyond the Iraqi Army. It was established to defend Islam."
> >
> >It is not unusual for Iraqi patrols in Sadr City, Baghdad's largest
>slum,
> >to be
> >greeted by children who hand them pictures of their hero. Although the
> >soldiers
> >defend themselves by saying that they do so under duress, they always
>hold
> >up
> >the photos to tremendous cheer and applause.
> >
> >We need to understand that al-Sadr is not just some fringe element.
>"The
> >New
> >Republic" has called him Iraq’s Dick Cheney, and his followers are
> >expected to
> >get up to five cabinet posts in the new government. He is a major
>player in
> >the
> >United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), which just won the December 2005 election.
>The
> >UIA
> >is headed by Aziz Al Hakim, a conservative cleric with close ties to
>Iran.
> >The
> >UIA also contains the Dawa Party, whose leader lived in Iranian exile
>for
> >many
> >years.
> >
> >Another member of the UIA is the Supreme Council for the Islamic
>Revolution
> >in
> >Iraq. This group has its own militia, the 12,000-man Badr Corps, which
>is
> >also
> >financed by Iranians. Iraq's current Interior Minister, Bayn Jabr,
>used to
> >be
> >the head of Badr Corps. The Sunnis have very good reasons to suspect
>that
> >the
> >Interior Ministry favors the Shia militias. In December, 2004, U. S.
> >troops
> >found 173 prisoners, mostly Sunnis, in an interrogation center run by
>the
> >Interior Ministry. Bayn Jabr rejected accusations that this was a
>torture
> >chamber, even though many showed clear signs of abuse, including
>missing
> >fingernails.
> >
> >Basra, Iraq's third largest city, is essentially under the control of
>Shia
> >paramilitary units. The head of Basra’s police estimates that half
>of
> >his force
> >has been infiltrated by Shia militants. Last fall three women at Basra
> >University were killed because they were unveiled in public.
> >
> >Quite apart from these extreme actions, the new constitution could very
> >well
> >remove many rights that women enjoyed under the former regime. Although
> >Article
> >14 guarantees equality for Iraqi women it also states that no
>legislation
> >can
> >contradict Islamic law. This means that Iraqi women could lose their
> >freedom to
> >choose their own husbands and lose their inheritance rights.
> >
> >Basra is headquarters for 8,500 British soldiers, who, like most
>Americans,
> >are
> >usually confined to their bases have learned not to intervene against
>the
> >militias. One Iraqi human rights activist complained that "the British
> >army
> >handed the city to the Islamist groups as a gift." Many observers
>predict
> >that
> >southern Iraq could easily become a satellite state of Iran and take
>with
> >it the
> >second largest source of Iraqi oil.
> >
> >The insurgents have also infiltrated Baghdad’s security forces. The
>most
> >serious
> >threat was a recent attempt by militants, disguised as security
>personnel,
> >to
> >penetrate the Green Zone. It was later discovered that a high official
>in
> >the
> >Interior Ministry was involved. If the plan had not been nipped in the
> >bud, it
> >could have led to hostage crisis similar to the one at the American
>embassy
> >in
> >Tehran in 1979-80.
> >
> >"The New Republic" reports that as recent as a year ago Iraqis polled
> >favored a
> >secular state, but now 70 percent want an Islamic state and the new
> >constitution
> >gives them legal grounds to have it. The disastrous situation in Iraq
> >evidently
> >has forced many former secularists to seek refuge what used to be only
> >nominal
> >religious affiliations.
> >
> >On March 19, 2006, former Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi confirmed
>what
> >many
> >have feared: "It is unfortunate that we are in civil war. We are losing
> >each
> >day, as an average, 50 to 60 people throughout the country, if not
>more. If
> >this
> >is not civil war, then [only] God knows what civil war is."
> >
> >The Bush administration’s original goals in Iraq were focused on our
>own
> >interests, not Iraqi interests. Bush manufactured a case for war based
>on
> >he
> >claimed were direct threats to the United States. Building a
>democratic
> >Iraq
> >was an afterthought to the invasion, and Rumsfeld threw out a well
>reasoned
> >State Department plan for Iraqi nation building.
> >
> >Even if Saddam had kicked out the second group of UN inspectors, we
>still
> >could
> >have contained him. The no-fly zone in the north would have continued
>to
> >protect the Kurds and the one in the south would have shielded the
>Shias
> >from
> >attack. The second round of inspections was thorough enough to show
>that
> >Saddam
> >had not rearmed and possessed no WMDs.
> >
> >There was a ruthless logic in the Reagan administration’s policy of
> >supporting a
> >secular Iraq against a radically religious Iran. Ironically, a much
> >younger
> >Rumsfeld, overlooking Saddam’s gassing of the Kurds and other
>atrocities,
> >was a
> >willing agent in executing that policy. The Iranians have just elected
>a
> >president far more radical than previous executives, and we have pushed
>for
> >Iraqi elections that resulted in the victory of pro-Iranian parties.
> >Bush's war
> >in Iraq has produced the worst possible outcome for our interests in
>the
> >Middle
> >East.
> >
> >Iraq's oil production is half what it was before the war and basic
> >utilities
> >such as water, electricity, heating oil, and sewer are also worse. I
> >wonder how
> >many Iraqis agree with this professor from Basra University who had
>this to
> >say
> >on the third anniversary of the war: "All in all, our life is worse
>than
> >when we
> >used to live under Saddam because now we are under fire. Now we can be
> >killed
> >any time on the streets."
> >
> >See my "Deceptions of War" at
> > http://users.adelphia.net/~nickgier/deceptions.htm .
> >My sources for column above were the Associated Press, the BBC, The
> >Washington
> >Post, the New York Times, The New York Review of Books, The Nation, and
>The
> >New
> >Republic. I will provide specific documentation upon request.
> >
> >_____________________________________________________
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> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> >
>
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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> List services made available by First Step Internet,
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>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
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