Expansion Questions (formally [Vision2020] Goodnight
Goody, Goodnight Ridge)
Jeff Harkins
jeffh at moscow.com
Sat Mar 4 11:38:32 PST 2006
Hi J Ford,
Great questions. I will offer some comments for
you to ponder - ordered with your questions:
>Questions:
>
>Why is Wal-Mart moving their business to the
>opposite side of town than where their store
>currently is? Can they not just expand on that
>site? Its not like they are going to suddenly
>have a mass increase in parking needs; seems
>like "all" they want to do is expand their selection and add a grocery.
At one point, I am told that there was
consideration of expansion at existing
site. Then, I am told, WalMart was approached
(or they approached) Pullman for a siting
there. Pullman urged WM to locate in Pullman -
at the Bishop Blvd site. Then WM saw an
opportunity to serve two communities (and perhaps
not contribute to the increasing competition
between the two communities) by locating a store
on the east side of Moscow (I have been told by
WM officials that the population base to support
a supercenter is about 18,000). The landowner
was approached and that process was set in motion.
Now, one of the pieces appears to be set in place
(approval of Bishop site). But the outcome
remains uncertain. In the long-term, IMHO, the
best Moscow can do to protect its place in the
retail market "food chain" is to permit the eastside location of WM.
I suspect that if that site is not approved, WM
will shift its preference for a stateline
location (in Whitman Cty) and will close the
existing store. The real benefit for Latah
residents is that food would not be taxed ( real
5% savings). Of course the costs (consequences)
of that could be high for some - the business
draw just across the line would be significant (Lowes, WM, ?)
>I am not sure why they need to build in an area
>that has so many resident housing (including a
>senior citizen village) where as the area they
>currently are situated in has no residents. One
>of the "complaints" against a big box is the
>noise and light pollution. Leaving it where it
>is and expanding it there would keep it in a
>"business oriented" area of town hence no need
>for rezoning headaches, and as noted below,
>allow for the traffic which they currently see;
>the East Side certainly does not have the
>traffic of the West Side but add a huge business
>there and suddenly we have bigger headaches. Or
>is it that the competition from the other big
>boxes coming in doesn't want them there on the West Side?
Perhaps my comments above will shed some light on
this question. I have heard that many senior
citizens who shop at WM are excited to have the
store so close to them (many of the senior
centers are on the east side.) Of course, there
are some who don't want it there.
>Can't the citizens have more of a say as to
>where these stores are put? Why is it left up
>to the City Staff to make those types of
>decisions? We don't elect them so no argument
>can be made that they are representing our thoughts or wishes.
My suggestion is that you review the process for
locating a business in Moscow. I think you will
find that the City Council establishes the policy
and the city staff is responsible for managing
the implementation of the policy.
>How does this type of planning fit in with the
>"New Cities" program that is being pushed on us?
I have very real concerns about the "New Cities"
agenda. I am confident that over the next several
weeks, issues and question will surface.
>And, as long as I brought that up, why are we
>even considering "New Cities" planning when the
>plan that is in place now is not being
>followed? What makes anyone think that a new
>plan is going to be adhered to any more closely
>than the one in place now? What new codes will
>have to be introduced and why does anyone expect
>the City Staff to follow those when they can't
>follow the ones on the books now? Whose bright
>idea is it to "expand the city by building it
>all within a one mile area of downtown"?
>Why are we supposed to be ok with a building up
>and filling up of the sky-line of our town? I
>am NOT against growth of this area, I just don't
>get why we have to suddenly look like we live on
>an island and the only place to go is up.
I have exactly the same questions - and I will
add one to your list. Who is going to pay for
the cost of all the proposed agendas? I had to
laugh out loud when I heard the suggestion that
the city streets should be narrowed to force
drivers to slow down. Someone is seriously
considering narrowing the streets when many
streets in Moscow are not yet paved???
>Is the "New Cities" a forgone conclusion like so
>many of the City Staff's other ideas - they just
>make it look like we have a say in it, when in
>reality we don't? Why are we letting an
>out-sider decide how best to manage out town and
>lands? The attitudes and planning strategy of
>someone from a big city is bound to be different
>than that of a community such as ours,
>especially since they are also from a different
>part of the country where, simply, things are done differently.
I share your concerns here.
Great post - let's see if anyone else has some answers.
>Just some thoughts.
>
>J :]
>
>
>
>
>>From: joekc at adelphia.net
>>To: Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com>
>>CC: Vision 2020
>><vision2020 at moscow.com>, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>>Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2006 10:01:10 -0500
>>
>>Great post, Bruce!
>>--
>>Joe Campbell
>>
>>---- Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>
>>=============
>>I imagine someone telling Dave he can't expand
>>Paradise Ridge CDs, and I don't like it. But
>>the obvious analogy to Wal-Mart that you are
>>trying to make is not a clean one, in my
>>opinion, Donovan, though I do agree with some of what you write.
>>
>>First, I wouldn't be the least bit concerned
>>about people telling me where they thought I
>>should shop. I kept buying grapes, even though
>>the Farm Workers were trying to organize a
>>boycott. I listen to the reasons for not
>>shopping at Wal-Mart, and I agree with some of
>>them, but I still shop at Wal-Mart on rare
>>occasions. I try to patronize other places,
>>and I always try Tri-State or Spence's, first,
>>because I think it is important to patronize
>>local businesses to help assure that more money
>>stays in the community. But I admit it, my
>>razor blades come from Wal-Mart when I don't have a Costco run in the offing.
>>
>>People may still shop at Wal-Mart, as they
>>could at any other store that is operating
>>here. I don't begrudge others the opportunity
>>to shop at Wal-Mart, and I agree with the free
>>market advocates and the need for business
>>opportunities in our community, and so I agree
>>with the right to expand when it comports with good planning and the law.
>>
>>But if Dave were in the mood to expand Paradise
>>Ridge, by buying up one of his neighbors on
>>Third Street in the heart of downtown, where
>>retail sales are the dominant and preferred
>>activity according to our zoning code and
>>comprehensive plan, anybody arguing against
>>that expansion would have worthless arguments,
>>and the expansion would be approved. That is
>>where your analogy falls apart, unless you were
>>contemplating plunking the CD store in an area
>>where it was not allowed -- in which case I
>>would likely not support that location despite my affection for the business.
>>
>>I think that what many fail to recognize is
>>that there are too kinds of Wal-Mart opponents
>>out there in our community right now: those
>>who abhor Wal-Mart and would deny its entry
>>anywhere, and those who question the planning
>>that went into this particular expansion
>>effort. I am on record as being in the latter
>>category. If I can find the reasons that I
>>submitted to the P&Z public hearing, I will forward them to the list.
>>
>>Briefly, I believe that the proposed extensive
>>commercial motor business designation of the
>>Thompson property is poor planning. Such
>>developments should have occurred between
>>downtown and the state line, as the
>>comprehensive plan dictated, had not the lack
>>of vision by prior councils allowed most of
>>that property along A street to become
>>apartments, contrary to the comprehensive
>>plan. Such a plan would still allow us to shop
>>and draw us through downtown, making it more
>>likely that our lovely downtown is a convenient
>>stop along the way. There is still opportunity
>>for expanded commercial development in the area
>>from behind the mall to the state line, as was
>>proposed at the same council meeting last
>>June when the Thompson project first
>>surfaced. Equally and maybe more important
>>given greater availability, there is a much
>>more obvious existing site than the Thompson
>>property for such extensive commercial
>>developments at the north and south ends of town along Highway 95, a f!
>> ar better traffic corridor. The Thompson
>> property ought, in my opinion, to be primarily
>> residential (as it was designated in the comp
>> plan until a bad planning decision by the
>> prior council last June) and not destroy the
>> ambience of the existing owners to the east
>> and across the street on Ridge. Finally, we
>> ought to be saving the west end of the
>> Thompson property for future expansion of
>> higher paying businesses than a shopping
>> center; we ought to allow Alturas that room to
>> expand, while fostering a pro-business
>> attitude and encouraging businesses that pay
>> at least living wages to locate here.
>>
>>Now at the risk of being a little windy here,
>>and if you are not already snoozing, there is a
>>third category of Wal-Mart opponent, in my
>>opinion and of which I am also a member, and it
>>relates to limited opportunities for shopping
>>in Moscow, the almighty mantra of "market
>>choice." I mentioned this on the list a while
>>back and it engendered little discussion. I
>>expected to hear a rebuttal from Jeff Harkins
>>who is the most fervent free marketer on the
>>list and my compatriot on the LEDC, and
>>he said he was working on it, but I seem to have missed it.
>>
>>The "more market choice" category that I just
>>mentioned might at first blush appear to
>>support letting anyone expand and enter, and
>>see what happens, the classic laissez faire
>>free market approach. But what I am contemplating is something different.
>>
>>It seems to me that we are a very small
>>community with a relatively limited amount of
>>disposable income to spend in (and therefore
>>support) the local stores of all
>>types. Wal-Mart offers one kind of shopping
>>venue, and a Super Wal-Mart would admittedly
>>offer more (if perhaps of the same lower
>>quality) and the most significant addition
>>might be food. There is already a Wal-Mart
>>here. There are four grocery stores, the Co-op
>>on the high end, Winco on the low end (offering
>>similar pricing to Wal-Mart from what I
>>understand) and Rosauer's and Safeway in
>>between. There will soon be a Super Wal-Mart a mere ten miles away in Pullman.
>>
>>The market choice that I am talking about is
>>more choices for us. Why a Wal-Mart which we
>>already have? Why not something else, so our
>>consumer choices are enhanced more than by the
>>expansion of the existing low-end product line
>>at Wal-Mart? Why not have our city and
>>economic development and business supporters
>>work on attracting an alternative to Wal-Mart,
>>so that our limited choices are not so likely to become primarily Wal-Mart?
>>Why not work harder to attract something more
>>interesting and beneficial to consumer
>>choice? Why let Wal-Mart pre-empt the market
>>and fill it up in the predatory fashion that it
>>appears to be following with two supercenters
>>within 10 miles? Why are we only talking about
>>the choices that the entrepreneurs choose to
>>offer and not the choices that we consumers
>>would like to see? We could work toward
>>educating other entrepreneurs and attracting
>>them instead, and if we put in place rules that
>>applied to all and some chose to play where Wal-Mart !
>> didn't, why wouldn't we be better off by having more varied choices?
>>
>>Perhaps most significant to my "more consumer
>>choices" angle, why let a 200,000 square foot
>>store come in and soak up the available dollars
>>in this very small community and make it less
>>likely for other more varied folks to enter our
>>market? Why isn't 100,000 square feet enough
>>in this little community? A size cap would
>>allow us more choices. I have a good friend on
>>the Chamber Board (who would probably prefer to
>>remain nameless) and he likes to talk about how
>>students often have the most disposable dollars
>>to spend, despite their low income, and that we
>>ought to be able to market Moscow and interest
>>someone other than Wal-Mart to enter our
>>community. If we are to have big boxes in our
>>community, why not be pro-active and get us
>>more real choice for Moscow's consumers, rather
>>than more of the Wal-Mart we already have?
>>
>>Several of my MCA Board buddies who oppose
>>Wal-Mart and big boxes in general characterize
>>this as the "pig in silk pajamas" argument,
>>because I do believe that large stores ought to
>>be allowed, but play nice and look nice,
>>whereas these others oppose them on general
>>principles. I don't want large stores to just
>>make the "great big sucking noise" Ross Perot
>>once described, though he was talking about
>>jobs going to Mexico and I am talking about
>>more of our dollars going to Bentonville
>>Arkansas. If we are to have out-of-town
>>chains, I would much prefer to have a Costco
>>that pays living wages than a Wal-Mart that
>>does not, even if lots of those dollars spent go to Seattle.
>>
>>Lest someone misconstrue this, I don't believe
>>we can choose one retailer over the other on
>>the whim of the Council. We need rules that
>>are applied fairly to all retailers and then we
>>need to apply the rules fairly, but I do
>>believe we can encourage better and more varied
>>consumer choices through thoughtful legislating
>>and pro-active and creative economic development efforts.
>>
>>Putting a halt to an ill-conceived project buys
>>us the time to do things better the next time,
>>to have a good plan in place, and to be ready
>>for things instead of just reacting to the next
>>request on a developer's wish list.
>>
>>Bruce Livingston
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Donovan Arnold
>> To: Bruce and Jean Livingston ; Vision 2020
>> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>>
>>
>> "I am flabbergasted to hear Sam Goody compared favorably by anyone to
>> Paradise Ridge. I find that Paradise Ridge is extremely competitive
>> price-wise with Hasting's, not to mention Sam Goody."-Bruce Livingston
>>
>> Apparently, enough people are in agreement
>> with you, since SM is going out of business
>> and Paradise Ridge is still here. Isn't free enterprise great?
>>
>> Now image Bruce, is someone wanted to stop
>> Paradise Ridge from expanding to provide you
>> with better products and service but others
>> that did not shop there were disagreement with
>> you, opposed the expansion, and telling you to go to Sam Goody instead.
>>
>> _DJA
>>
>>
>> Bruce and Jean Livingston <jeanlivingston at turbonet.com> wrote:
>> I am flabbergasted to hear Sam Goody compared favorably by anyone to
>> Paradise Ridge. I find that Paradise Ridge is extremely competitive
>> price-wise with Hasting's, not to mention
>> Sam Goody. And the one thing that
>> you get from Paradise Ridge that you do
>> not get anywhere else, at least to
>> the level that you receive from Dave at
>> Paradise Ridge, is SERVICE. If he
>> doesn't have it, he finds it, and the
>> ordering process with Paradise Ridge
>> is far easier than any other store in town.
>>
>> Bruce Livingston
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Art Deco"
>> To: "Vision 2020"
>> Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 11:02 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>>
>>
>> > Music Lovers, Economists, and Absolute Monists,
>> >
>> > The following words appeared in the
>> letter below written by Jay Feldman
>> > and
>> > posted by Tom Hansen:
>> >
>> > "Ross tells us there is just such a store in Moscow, Paradise Ridge
>> > Records,
>> > but he is unwilling to patronize it
>> because its prices are higher than the
>> > defunct Goody."
>> >
>> > I believe the assumption in this quote
>> is wrong. My experience has been
>> > that Sam Goody had the highest CD prices
>> on the Palouse by a considerable
>> > margin except for advertised specials, some of the prices of these
>> > specials
>> > were still higher than Paradise Ridge CDs' prices.
>> >
>> > For example, I recently bought Moonlight Serenade by Carly Simon (a
>> > collection of really old tunes for really old people like myself, done
>> > quite
>> > tastefully). The album comes with a disc
>> which is a CD on one side and a
>> > DVD on the other. It was priced at $19.98 at Sam Goody and $16.98
>> > elsewhere. When I shopped at Paradise Ridge CDs, I found their prices
>> > competitive -- many were below list.
>> Discussions with others lead me to
>> > believe that they found prices highest by far at Sam Goody also.
>> >
>> > Sam Goody at the PEM is closing in part because of corporate problems,
>> > part
>> > of which may be related to their pricing
>> strategies. The local Sam Goody
>> > also had other problems, some not fit for discussion on this list.
>> >
>> >
>> > For those keeping track:
>> >
>> > There are seven, soon to be eight vacancies at the PEM:
>> >
>> > 1. Army Recruiters
>> > 2. Marine Recruiters
>> > 3. Optometrist Office
>> > 4. Chocolaut
>> > 5. Flower Shop
>> > 6. Subway
>> > 7. Market Place Gifts
>> > 8. Sam Goody
>> >
>> > There are persistent rumors that one quite large retailer is seriously
>> > considering leaving.
>> >
>> > Questions:
>> >
>> > 1. Where is the PEM in its life cycle?
>> > 2. Did the redecoration at the PEM with the oodles of light fixtures
>> > that
>> > makes one think that they are in the
>> midst of an extensive, well organized
>> > invasion of flying saucers help or hinder the effort to attract more
>> > customers?
>> > 3. Did the stinginess/anti-community attitude of the PEM management in
>> > eliminating the bus stop help or hinder the volume of business?
>> > 4. If the vacancies at the PEM are an indication in some way of
>> > problems
>> > of some kind with the local economy, how
>> does this reflect on plans for
>> > the
>> > big jesus shopping mall planned for just over the state line?
>> > 5. Does the PEM vacancy rate have anything to do with the WalMart or
>> > the
>> > two proposed WalMart Super Centers?
>> > 6. What, if anything, could the PEM management do to increase the
>> > general
>> > volume of business?
>> >
>> > Of course, question 3 above is quite
>> biasly stated; however, I think some
>> > community reflection on these questions
>> would be helpful in examining and
>> > shaping some community values.
>> >
>> >
>> > Quite sadly, a downtown store which we
>> patronized very happily, is soon to
>> > go out of business. Although they carried a really excellent line of
>> > products, gave excellent customer service, were very product
>> > knowledgeable,
>> > and had an extremely liberal return
>> policy, they are being squeezed by the
>> > internet. This is what happens: People come in and look at the
>> > merchandise, get detailed information,
>> ask technical questions, examine
>> > closely /try on the products, then they order the products over the
>> > internet.
>> >
>> > For many items we buy locally, we do
>> just the opposite. We research using
>> > the internet, then buy or special order the products locally. Local
>> > merchants contribute and support many diverse community activities --
>> > internet etailers do not. Etailers
>> generally do not collect Idaho sales
>> > tax
>> > either.
>> >
>> > Are any list members are concerned about the health of several local
>> > business who face heavy competition from the internet?
>> >
>> >
>> > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> > deco at moscow.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Tom Hansen"
>> > To: "Moscow Vision 2020"
>> > Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 6:57 AM
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Goodnight Goody, Goodnight Ridge
>> >
>> >
>> >> >From today's (March 3, 2006) UI
>> Argonaut with a special thanks to Jay
>> >> Feldman.
>> >>
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Goodnight Goody, goodnight Ridge
>> >>
>> >> Dear Editor,
>> >>
>> >> Am I the only one that noticed the
>> irony in the placement of the column
>> >> "Death of a pop supercenter" next to the anti-Superwalmart editorial?
>> >> The writer, Jon Ross, laments that Sam Goody is going out of business
>> >> nationwide (including Moscow) while he
>> dreams of an indie-esque record
>> >> store
>> >> in Moscow to replace it. Oddly though,
>> Ross tells us there is just such a
>> >> store in Moscow, Paradise Ridge
>> Records, but he is unwilling to patronize
>> >> it
>> >> because its prices are higher than the defunct Goody.
>> >>
>> >> Well, as consumers, we can't have it both ways. We can't have quality
>> >> independent stores that pay more into the local tax base, offer
>> >> personalized
>> >> service, a greater selection, a
>> professional staff that is paid a living
>> >> wage, along with, as the writer
>> expects, "cheap music." Yet, we expect to
>> >> because Wal-Mart has responded to our
>> deep desire for the lowest price by
>> >> setting us on a race to the bottom where every store must match its
>> >> prices
>> >> regardless of what that store might
>> offer its patrons and its community.
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, in America, price has
>> become the sole factor in deciding
>> >> which stores we frequent. As the
>> world's largest retailer, Wal-Mart can
>> >> offer the lowest prices possible but at
>> a high cost to communities like
>> >> Moscow. Shoppers have come to assume the Wal-Mart price is the proper
>> >> market
>> >> price and the Wal-Mart price thus is
>> the price we should expect to pay.
>> >> Because of such a mentality, shoppers - including Ross, at his own
>> >> admission
>> >> - will not pay more than this false
>> standard. As a result, when forced to
>> >> compete with a Super Wal-Mart, small independent stores, like many in
>> >> Moscow, go out of business and small
>> towns are left with the impersonal,
>> >> poor selection, tax-base draining, Super Wal-Marts, just the position
>> >> Ross
>> >> laments.
>> >>
>> >> Certainly paying a bit extra is
>> difficult for many, and luckily we have
>> >> the
>> >> independent chain WinCo to provide us
>> with groceries that beat any Super
>> >> Wal-Mart's prices and an existing Wal-Mart for those who wish to shop
>> >> there.
>> >> What we don't need is a Wal-Mart Supercenter that will reinforce this
>> >> "lowest price at any cost" mentality.
>> >>
>> >> Ross laments not having a quality, all-music store in Moscow, when in
>> >> fact
>> >> we do have one. Ross needs to do what
>> so many of us need to do, overcome
>> >> our
>> >> addiction to low price and support the local businesses whose tax
>> >> revenues
>> >> support us.
>> >>
>> >> Jay P. Feldman
>> >> Department of philosophy
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.
>> >>
>> >> Tom Hansen
>> >> Moscow, Idaho
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> **************************************************************
>> >>
>> >> "A bad cause will ever be supported by bad means and bad men."
>> >>
>> >> - Thomas Paine (English Writer, 1737-1809)
>> >>
>> >> **************************************************************
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _____________________________________________________
>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> >> http://www.fsr.net
>> >> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >
>> > _____________________________________________________
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>> > communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> >
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