[Vision2020] Eavesdropping
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Wed Mar 1 09:10:45 PST 2006
Pat writes:
"Sometimes I wonder if you are in any way aware of the complexities of this
world."
I find this to be one of the most interesting comments I have read so far on
this list and its context. Possibly Sunil agrees.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
> Good heavens! Have you lived on this planet very long?? The knowledge of
> the
> abuses by former presidents is long and well documented...I know several
> people it happened to and with far less justification than 'national
> security'. I have a question for you: If a person can buy a throw away
> cell
> phone in a store (maybe a Wally World!) use if for the two hours there is
> time for talk about bombs and then the number is no longer good how do you
> think they should get a warrant? Communications are in a different world
> than when the constitution was written...no we should not throw it out,
> but
> we should give our government room to work within the changes. You and
> many
> others keep saying it is domestic spying but they are monitoring calls
> internationally...especially from those Arab countries that so many are up
> in arms about right now. You all talk out of both sides of your
> mouth...not
> in ports but don't listen on calls. Sometimes I wonder if you are in any
> way
> aware of the complexities of this world.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
> To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>
>
> Phil,
>
> This is my third and last post for today, so I'll have to take it up
> tomorrow but if all you say is true, why haven't you or don't you go to
> press with it?
>
> James
>
>
>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:24:18 -0800
>>
>>James
>>
>>The tapping of my phone and the illegal surveliance of American Citizens
>>that I refered to in my posts was conducted by the CLINTON Administration
>>against people who opposed Clinton's agenda. There was no Natinal
>>Security
>>involved, it was purely a domestic spying in furtherence of a domestic
>>agenda and that is what Nixon was did as well.
>>
>>What you are accusing the Bush administration of is warrantless tapping of
>>phones in a National Security case by NSA. That is significantly
>>different
>>than warrantless taps by DOJ that were conducted by the Clinton
>>Administration. Where National Security law in regard to such actions is
>>a
>>grey area of the law, Domestic wiretaps of American citizens in cases of
>>domestic politics are bright letter law and a clear case of an impeachable
>>offense.
>>
>>None of those illegal activities of Clinton's were put to the test of
>>impeachment. Instead, idiotic charges of lying about boffing one of his
>>interns was made into an issue. It was on its face a waste of time and
>>taxpayers funds.
>>
>>I repeat, as I did in my posts previously, regardless of the illegal
>>activities of the Clinton Adminstration in in domestic spying and other
>>such actions, it was not in the interests of the American People to see
>>the
>>man impeached. It is also not in the interests of the American People to
>>see Bush Impeached. It was not in the interests of the American People to
>>see Franklin Deleno Roosevelt impeached and he made Clinton, Bush and
>>Nixon
>>look like a freaking bunch of pikers when it came to illegal actions in
>>domestic spying, illegal war activities and the rest.
>>
>>Now, is this or is it not clear to you?
>>
>>Phil Nisbet
>>
>>
>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:00:06 -0800
>>>
>>>Phil,
>>>
>>>Right here you said that what Bush is doing is illegal and he should be
>>>tried for it.
>>>
>>>"Nixon was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering
>>>on private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions".
>>>
>>>Or don't you understand what you write?
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:46:00 -0800
>>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>Which part of I did not support it under Clinton, who I have noted
>>>>tapped
>>>>my phone, and therefore do not support it under Bush, did you not
>>>>understand?
>>>>
>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:42:16 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>Phil,
>>>>>I am glad to hear you agree that what the current government is doing
>>>>>is
>>>>>illegal and an impeachable offense.
>>>>>
>>>>>James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:35:15 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Illegal wiretapping was one of your points was it not. My phone was
>>>>>>tapped James and there was no warrant for the tap. As for protesting,
>>>>>>mine was done on private property and sending etters to the editor,
>>>>>>not
>>>>>>by acts of civil disobediance in which the hope for arrest to make a
>>>>>>point was part of the protest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you think its A OK for the government to tap phones, harrass,
>>>>>>gather
>>>>>>intellegance on people solely because they hold rallies on private
>>>>>>property and gather patetions seeking redress of greviences, then by
>>>>>>gum I am sure glad that we do not have you in government James. Nixon
>>>>>>was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering on
>>>>>>private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>>>>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:59:23 -0800
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Good Lord Phil. You think because the Feds were watching you when you
>>>>>>>were an activist entails an impeachable offense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I've had to shoulder my way through Feds during the 80's when they
>>>>>>>were watching the activists demonstrating against Forest Service
>>>>>>>timber harvest plans in the Nez Perce Natl. Forest. They were there
>>>>>>>because wacko-pinkos like you some times go to far and endanger
>>>>>>>others
>>>>>>>lives and it was Federal ground. in that environment stories whirl
>>>>>>>around like wildfire. A logging comrade infiltrated the Picko's
>>>>>>>defenses (we were as hippy looking as them) just because they had
>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>good looking women in their group. All-in-all it was great fun and
>>>>>>>baiting the Marshals was just a part of the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Our founding fathers specifically made it our duty to protect the
>>>>>>>Constitution and Bill of Rights from a government that misuses their
>>>>>>>power. To not defend our country from this government is the moral
>>>>>>>crime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:05:24 -0800
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Not to put too fine a point on it, having been spied on by the
>>>>>>>>Clinton Administration, having been threatened by officials of the
>>>>>>>>Clinton Justice Department for organizing rallies and opposition to
>>>>>>>>their policies and even having had the pleasure of mobilization of
>>>>>>>>BATF and Marshals to "surround" my home, I think I can safely say
>>>>>>>>that a lot of pretty stupid things happened that were very
>>>>>>>>actionable
>>>>>>>>during the Clinton Years.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When I organized a 2000 person Rally in Salmon during the Central
>>>>>>>>Idaho Forest Injunction, attended by not only the town folk, but
>>>>>>>>also
>>>>>>>>every single employee of the BLM and USFS, the DOJ tapped my phone
>>>>>>>>without warrant, called BLM personnel and threatened their jobs for
>>>>>>>>any association with me, though I was working with them at the time
>>>>>>>>to improve habitat, warned USFS folks who were friends that they
>>>>>>>>intended arresting me (Though for the life of me I have no idea what
>>>>>>>>sort of charge other than exercise of free speech could have been
>>>>>>>>levied) and even had a team of armed folks come to Salmon. When our
>>>>>>>>Senators and Congressmen came up for a follow-up rally that demanded
>>>>>>>>the lifting of the Forest injunction in a car convoy from Boise,
>>>>>>>>Federal Marshals tailed them as possible radical elements.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I did what I normally do. I got with Dave Crosting of the BLM and
>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>took the BATF and Marshall's guys out for a beer, introduced them
>>>>>>>>around town, let them know that there was no dangerous revolution
>>>>>>>>happening and then hit the phones to DOJ to get them to back off.
>>>>>>>>The Marshals told us that DOJ had fed them that we were some sort of
>>>>>>>>a Militia Group bent on murdering Federal Employees, yet the picture
>>>>>>>>in the Idaho Falls Post Register (Jerry Brady's paper in Idaho
>>>>>>>>Falls)
>>>>>>>>showed I and the SO of the Salmon National Forest and the local head
>>>>>>>>of BLM doing a power salute together at the very first rally. Mr.
>>>>>>>>Lipschitz of the DOJ's Office of Environmental Litigation had
>>>>>>>>claimed
>>>>>>>>that we were marching with a thousand POed ranchers to burn down the
>>>>>>>>offices of the Salmon National Forest, though how he would determine
>>>>>>>>that from DC was hard to figure and where one would find a thousand
>>>>>>>>ranchers in Lemhi County was even harder to determine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>When actual militia types showed up in Salmon trying to exploit the
>>>>>>>>bad vibes created by the Clinton Administration's actions, we threw
>>>>>>>>them out of town. When militia types bulldozed McKim Creek to make
>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>political statement, destroying salmon redds in the process, I not
>>>>>>>>only pushed to have them prosecuted, testified at the trail that put
>>>>>>>>them in Jail for ten years, I rolled up my sleeves, raised money
>>>>>>>>locally and cleaned the site up (USFS did not have the funds to do
>>>>>>>>so
>>>>>>>>and asked for my help to get the redds back into shape before the
>>>>>>>>fish returned in Spring). That did not stop the harassment I went
>>>>>>>>through with Peter Lipschitz at DOJ or his counterpart at the
>>>>>>>>Council
>>>>>>>>on Environmental Quality. I had an FBI file an inch and a half
>>>>>>>>thick
>>>>>>>>by 1998 and I had committed not one illegal act in my life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And through all of that, James, I held as I do now, that impeachment
>>>>>>>>and hate were a useless response and that revolution and other such
>>>>>>>>talk was a waste of breath. If one disagrees with a Federal Policy,
>>>>>>>>the proper action is to oppose it in the sphere of politics, to
>>>>>>>>organize fellow voters and to vote the rascals out. As I told the
>>>>>>>>crazy militia people, take an American flag and Piss on it and grind
>>>>>>>>it into the dust, because that is what any person who talks
>>>>>>>>revolution is really doing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:25:33 -0800
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Phil,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Clinton was impeached, he just was not removed from office because
>>>>>>>>>lying about an extramarital affair was not a crime worthy of
>>>>>>>>>removing him. However lying to get a war started and illegally
>>>>>>>>>spying on the American people (and lying about this also) are two
>>>>>>>>>crimes that are not only impeachable offenses but are definitely
>>>>>>>>>worthy of removal. Is he guilty? Hell yes. Will he be impeached?
>>>>>>>>>Hell no. Why not? Because we have a pathetic congress that only
>>>>>>>>>thinks of their individual wealth accumulation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I reiterate that this is not about Clinton vs. Bush nor Republican
>>>>>>>>>vs Democrat. The current battle is between the American people and
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>self centered government. Impeachment is not enough we need a
>>>>>>>>>revolution to replace this mess and start again with the
>>>>>>>>>Constitution once again as our guiding document.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>To: ophite at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:20:28 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Andreas
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that is fairly assumptive. I for one was pretty
>>>>>>>>>>strongly opposed to the impeachment process at the time. A lot of
>>>>>>>>>>people in the GOP who did not care of many a Clinton Policy were
>>>>>>>>>>also opposed. Had they not been, Clinton would have been
>>>>>>>>>>impeached.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Not all Republicans or conservatives were Clinton haters, that is
>>>>>>>>>>folks who would believe absolutely anything and foam at the mouth
>>>>>>>>>>for Clinton's blood. I seem to recall any number of liberal
>>>>>>>>>>Democratic friends who said at that time that if the shoe was on
>>>>>>>>>>the other foot, they would act differently and that we should
>>>>>>>>>>remember the President was the President for all Americans.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Do you see any difference between the Clinton haters who had him
>>>>>>>>>>plotting to kill girls he had slept with and sending Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>secret
>>>>>>>>>>agents ;to get bribe money or plot to overthrow the government and
>>>>>>>>>>the folks now who see the same crazy thing going down with Bush?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Reality is that America did not disappear in the last years of the
>>>>>>>>>>Clinton Administration and it will not disappear in the last years
>>>>>>>>>>of the Bush one either. All the talk of revolution then was hot
>>>>>>>>>>air and the same is true now. Heck I would be glad to pull up
>>>>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>of the 1940's stuff that was going around screaming the exact same
>>>>>>>>>>thing about FDR. Its been 65 years since those rants about
>>>>>>>>>>Imperial Presidencies and war mongering and destroying our rights
>>>>>>>>>>and shock and amazement, America is actually freer now than then.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 23:45:59 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On 2/27/06, Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Oh, Yes! Lets get someone else who for years will suck up
>>>>>>>>>>> > money
>>>>>>>>>>>and come
>>>>>>>>>>> > up with no real answers...it is a great system for using up
>>>>>>>>>>>funds that
>>>>>>>>>>> > aren't needed somewhere else!
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Funny. That doesn't seem to have been your opinion when it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>pointless
>>>>>>>>>>>investigation of Clinton that was the issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>-- ACS
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
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>>>>>>>>>>http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>>>>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________
>>>>>>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>>>>>>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
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