[Vision2020] Eavesdropping
Pat Kraut
pkraut at moscow.com
Wed Mar 1 09:03:21 PST 2006
Good heavens! Have you lived on this planet very long?? The knowledge of the
abuses by former presidents is long and well documented...I know several
people it happened to and with far less justification than 'national
security'. I have a question for you: If a person can buy a throw away cell
phone in a store (maybe a Wally World!) use if for the two hours there is
time for talk about bombs and then the number is no longer good how do you
think they should get a warrant? Communications are in a different world
than when the constitution was written...no we should not throw it out, but
we should give our government room to work within the changes. You and many
others keep saying it is domestic spying but they are monitoring calls
internationally...especially from those Arab countries that so many are up
in arms about right now. You all talk out of both sides of your mouth...not
in ports but don't listen on calls. Sometimes I wonder if you are in any way
aware of the complexities of this world.
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
Phil,
This is my third and last post for today, so I'll have to take it up
tomorrow but if all you say is true, why haven't you or don't you go to
press with it?
James
>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:24:18 -0800
>
>James
>
>The tapping of my phone and the illegal surveliance of American Citizens
>that I refered to in my posts was conducted by the CLINTON Administration
>against people who opposed Clinton's agenda. There was no Natinal Security
>involved, it was purely a domestic spying in furtherence of a domestic
>agenda and that is what Nixon was did as well.
>
>What you are accusing the Bush administration of is warrantless tapping of
>phones in a National Security case by NSA. That is significantly different
>than warrantless taps by DOJ that were conducted by the Clinton
>Administration. Where National Security law in regard to such actions is a
>grey area of the law, Domestic wiretaps of American citizens in cases of
>domestic politics are bright letter law and a clear case of an impeachable
>offense.
>
>None of those illegal activities of Clinton's were put to the test of
>impeachment. Instead, idiotic charges of lying about boffing one of his
>interns was made into an issue. It was on its face a waste of time and
>taxpayers funds.
>
>I repeat, as I did in my posts previously, regardless of the illegal
>activities of the Clinton Adminstration in in domestic spying and other
>such actions, it was not in the interests of the American People to see the
>man impeached. It is also not in the interests of the American People to
>see Bush Impeached. It was not in the interests of the American People to
>see Franklin Deleno Roosevelt impeached and he made Clinton, Bush and Nixon
>look like a freaking bunch of pikers when it came to illegal actions in
>domestic spying, illegal war activities and the rest.
>
>Now, is this or is it not clear to you?
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
>
>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:00:06 -0800
>>
>>Phil,
>>
>>Right here you said that what Bush is doing is illegal and he should be
>>tried for it.
>>
>>"Nixon was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering
>>on private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions".
>>
>>Or don't you understand what you write?
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:46:00 -0800
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>Which part of I did not support it under Clinton, who I have noted tapped
>>>my phone, and therefore do not support it under Bush, did you not
>>>understand?
>>>
>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:42:16 -0800
>>>>
>>>>Phil,
>>>>I am glad to hear you agree that what the current government is doing is
>>>>illegal and an impeachable offense.
>>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:35:15 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>James
>>>>>
>>>>>Illegal wiretapping was one of your points was it not. My phone was
>>>>>tapped James and there was no warrant for the tap. As for protesting,
>>>>>mine was done on private property and sending etters to the editor, not
>>>>>by acts of civil disobediance in which the hope for arrest to make a
>>>>>point was part of the protest.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you think its A OK for the government to tap phones, harrass, gather
>>>>>intellegance on people solely because they hold rallies on private
>>>>>property and gather patetions seeking redress of greviences, then by
>>>>>gum I am sure glad that we do not have you in government James. Nixon
>>>>>was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering on
>>>>>private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>>>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions.
>>>>>
>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:59:23 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good Lord Phil. You think because the Feds were watching you when you
>>>>>>were an activist entails an impeachable offense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I've had to shoulder my way through Feds during the 80's when they
>>>>>>were watching the activists demonstrating against Forest Service
>>>>>>timber harvest plans in the Nez Perce Natl. Forest. They were there
>>>>>>because wacko-pinkos like you some times go to far and endanger others
>>>>>>lives and it was Federal ground. in that environment stories whirl
>>>>>>around like wildfire. A logging comrade infiltrated the Picko's
>>>>>>defenses (we were as hippy looking as them) just because they had some
>>>>>>good looking women in their group. All-in-all it was great fun and
>>>>>>baiting the Marshals was just a part of the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Our founding fathers specifically made it our duty to protect the
>>>>>>Constitution and Bill of Rights from a government that misuses their
>>>>>>power. To not defend our country from this government is the moral
>>>>>>crime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:05:24 -0800
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Not to put too fine a point on it, having been spied on by the
>>>>>>>Clinton Administration, having been threatened by officials of the
>>>>>>>Clinton Justice Department for organizing rallies and opposition to
>>>>>>>their policies and even having had the pleasure of mobilization of
>>>>>>>BATF and Marshals to "surround" my home, I think I can safely say
>>>>>>>that a lot of pretty stupid things happened that were very actionable
>>>>>>>during the Clinton Years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When I organized a 2000 person Rally in Salmon during the Central
>>>>>>>Idaho Forest Injunction, attended by not only the town folk, but also
>>>>>>>every single employee of the BLM and USFS, the DOJ tapped my phone
>>>>>>>without warrant, called BLM personnel and threatened their jobs for
>>>>>>>any association with me, though I was working with them at the time
>>>>>>>to improve habitat, warned USFS folks who were friends that they
>>>>>>>intended arresting me (Though for the life of me I have no idea what
>>>>>>>sort of charge other than exercise of free speech could have been
>>>>>>>levied) and even had a team of armed folks come to Salmon. When our
>>>>>>>Senators and Congressmen came up for a follow-up rally that demanded
>>>>>>>the lifting of the Forest injunction in a car convoy from Boise,
>>>>>>>Federal Marshals tailed them as possible radical elements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I did what I normally do. I got with Dave Crosting of the BLM and we
>>>>>>>took the BATF and Marshall's guys out for a beer, introduced them
>>>>>>>around town, let them know that there was no dangerous revolution
>>>>>>>happening and then hit the phones to DOJ to get them to back off.
>>>>>>>The Marshals told us that DOJ had fed them that we were some sort of
>>>>>>>a Militia Group bent on murdering Federal Employees, yet the picture
>>>>>>>in the Idaho Falls Post Register (Jerry Brady's paper in Idaho Falls)
>>>>>>>showed I and the SO of the Salmon National Forest and the local head
>>>>>>>of BLM doing a power salute together at the very first rally. Mr.
>>>>>>>Lipschitz of the DOJ's Office of Environmental Litigation had claimed
>>>>>>>that we were marching with a thousand POed ranchers to burn down the
>>>>>>>offices of the Salmon National Forest, though how he would determine
>>>>>>>that from DC was hard to figure and where one would find a thousand
>>>>>>>ranchers in Lemhi County was even harder to determine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When actual militia types showed up in Salmon trying to exploit the
>>>>>>>bad vibes created by the Clinton Administration's actions, we threw
>>>>>>>them out of town. When militia types bulldozed McKim Creek to make a
>>>>>>>political statement, destroying salmon redds in the process, I not
>>>>>>>only pushed to have them prosecuted, testified at the trail that put
>>>>>>>them in Jail for ten years, I rolled up my sleeves, raised money
>>>>>>>locally and cleaned the site up (USFS did not have the funds to do so
>>>>>>>and asked for my help to get the redds back into shape before the
>>>>>>>fish returned in Spring). That did not stop the harassment I went
>>>>>>>through with Peter Lipschitz at DOJ or his counterpart at the Council
>>>>>>>on Environmental Quality. I had an FBI file an inch and a half thick
>>>>>>>by 1998 and I had committed not one illegal act in my life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And through all of that, James, I held as I do now, that impeachment
>>>>>>>and hate were a useless response and that revolution and other such
>>>>>>>talk was a waste of breath. If one disagrees with a Federal Policy,
>>>>>>>the proper action is to oppose it in the sphere of politics, to
>>>>>>>organize fellow voters and to vote the rascals out. As I told the
>>>>>>>crazy militia people, take an American flag and Piss on it and grind
>>>>>>>it into the dust, because that is what any person who talks
>>>>>>>revolution is really doing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:25:33 -0800
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Phil,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Clinton was impeached, he just was not removed from office because
>>>>>>>>lying about an extramarital affair was not a crime worthy of
>>>>>>>>removing him. However lying to get a war started and illegally
>>>>>>>>spying on the American people (and lying about this also) are two
>>>>>>>>crimes that are not only impeachable offenses but are definitely
>>>>>>>>worthy of removal. Is he guilty? Hell yes. Will he be impeached?
>>>>>>>>Hell no. Why not? Because we have a pathetic congress that only
>>>>>>>>thinks of their individual wealth accumulation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I reiterate that this is not about Clinton vs. Bush nor Republican
>>>>>>>>vs Democrat. The current battle is between the American people and a
>>>>>>>>self centered government. Impeachment is not enough we need a
>>>>>>>>revolution to replace this mess and start again with the
>>>>>>>>Constitution once again as our guiding document.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: ophite at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:20:28 -0800
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Andreas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that is fairly assumptive. I for one was pretty
>>>>>>>>>strongly opposed to the impeachment process at the time. A lot of
>>>>>>>>>people in the GOP who did not care of many a Clinton Policy were
>>>>>>>>>also opposed. Had they not been, Clinton would have been
>>>>>>>>>impeached.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Not all Republicans or conservatives were Clinton haters, that is
>>>>>>>>>folks who would believe absolutely anything and foam at the mouth
>>>>>>>>>for Clinton's blood. I seem to recall any number of liberal
>>>>>>>>>Democratic friends who said at that time that if the shoe was on
>>>>>>>>>the other foot, they would act differently and that we should
>>>>>>>>>remember the President was the President for all Americans.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Do you see any difference between the Clinton haters who had him
>>>>>>>>>plotting to kill girls he had slept with and sending Chinese secret
>>>>>>>>>agents ;to get bribe money or plot to overthrow the government and
>>>>>>>>>the folks now who see the same crazy thing going down with Bush?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Reality is that America did not disappear in the last years of the
>>>>>>>>>Clinton Administration and it will not disappear in the last years
>>>>>>>>>of the Bush one either. All the talk of revolution then was hot
>>>>>>>>>air and the same is true now. Heck I would be glad to pull up some
>>>>>>>>>of the 1940's stuff that was going around screaming the exact same
>>>>>>>>>thing about FDR. Its been 65 years since those rants about
>>>>>>>>>Imperial Presidencies and war mongering and destroying our rights
>>>>>>>>>and shock and amazement, America is actually freer now than then.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 23:45:59 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On 2/27/06, Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Oh, Yes! Lets get someone else who for years will suck up money
>>>>>>>>>>and come
>>>>>>>>>> > up with no real answers...it is a great system for using up
>>>>>>>>>>funds that
>>>>>>>>>> > aren't needed somewhere else!
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Funny. That doesn't seem to have been your opinion when it was a
>>>>>>>>>>pointless
>>>>>>>>>>investigation of Clinton that was the issue.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>-- ACS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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