[Vision2020] Eavesdropping
Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Wed Mar 1 14:18:45 PST 2006
Hey man, I just want to know why we're in Iraq.
Sunil
>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 09:10:45 -0800
>
>Pat writes:
>
>"Sometimes I wonder if you are in any way aware of the complexities of this
>world."
>
>I find this to be one of the most interesting comments I have read so far
>on this list and its context. Possibly Sunil agrees.
>
>W.
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 9:03 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>
>
>>Good heavens! Have you lived on this planet very long?? The knowledge of
>>the
>>abuses by former presidents is long and well documented...I know several
>>people it happened to and with far less justification than 'national
>>security'. I have a question for you: If a person can buy a throw away
>>cell
>>phone in a store (maybe a Wally World!) use if for the two hours there is
>>time for talk about bombs and then the number is no longer good how do you
>>think they should get a warrant? Communications are in a different world
>>than when the constitution was written...no we should not throw it out,
>>but
>>we should give our government room to work within the changes. You and
>>many
>>others keep saying it is domestic spying but they are monitoring calls
>>internationally...especially from those Arab countries that so many are up
>>in arms about right now. You all talk out of both sides of your
>>mouth...not
>>in ports but don't listen on calls. Sometimes I wonder if you are in any
>>way
>>aware of the complexities of this world.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "James Reynolds"
>><chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:11 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>
>>
>>Phil,
>>
>>This is my third and last post for today, so I'll have to take it up
>>tomorrow but if all you say is true, why haven't you or don't you go to
>>press with it?
>>
>>James
>>
>>
>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:24:18 -0800
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>The tapping of my phone and the illegal surveliance of American Citizens
>>>that I refered to in my posts was conducted by the CLINTON Administration
>>>against people who opposed Clinton's agenda. There was no Natinal
>>>Security
>>>involved, it was purely a domestic spying in furtherence of a domestic
>>>agenda and that is what Nixon was did as well.
>>>
>>>What you are accusing the Bush administration of is warrantless tapping
>>>of
>>>phones in a National Security case by NSA. That is significantly
>>>different
>>>than warrantless taps by DOJ that were conducted by the Clinton
>>>Administration. Where National Security law in regard to such actions is
>>>a
>>>grey area of the law, Domestic wiretaps of American citizens in cases of
>>>domestic politics are bright letter law and a clear case of an
>>>impeachable
>>>offense.
>>>
>>>None of those illegal activities of Clinton's were put to the test of
>>>impeachment. Instead, idiotic charges of lying about boffing one of his
>>>interns was made into an issue. It was on its face a waste of time and
>>>taxpayers funds.
>>>
>>>I repeat, as I did in my posts previously, regardless of the illegal
>>>activities of the Clinton Adminstration in in domestic spying and other
>>>such actions, it was not in the interests of the American People to see
>>>the
>>>man impeached. It is also not in the interests of the American People to
>>>see Bush Impeached. It was not in the interests of the American People
>>>to
>>>see Franklin Deleno Roosevelt impeached and he made Clinton, Bush and
>>>Nixon
>>>look like a freaking bunch of pikers when it came to illegal actions in
>>>domestic spying, illegal war activities and the rest.
>>>
>>>Now, is this or is it not clear to you?
>>>
>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:00:06 -0800
>>>>
>>>>Phil,
>>>>
>>>>Right here you said that what Bush is doing is illegal and he should be
>>>>tried for it.
>>>>
>>>>"Nixon was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering
>>>>on private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions".
>>>>
>>>>Or don't you understand what you write?
>>>>
>>>>James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:46:00 -0800
>>>>>
>>>>>James
>>>>>
>>>>>Which part of I did not support it under Clinton, who I have noted
>>>>>tapped
>>>>>my phone, and therefore do not support it under Bush, did you not
>>>>>understand?
>>>>>
>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:42:16 -0800
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Phil,
>>>>>>I am glad to hear you agree that what the current government is doing
>>>>>>is
>>>>>>illegal and an impeachable offense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>James
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:35:15 -0800
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Illegal wiretapping was one of your points was it not. My phone was
>>>>>>>tapped James and there was no warrant for the tap. As for
>>>>>>>protesting,
>>>>>>>mine was done on private property and sending etters to the editor,
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>by acts of civil disobediance in which the hope for arrest to make a
>>>>>>>point was part of the protest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you think its A OK for the government to tap phones, harrass,
>>>>>>>gather
>>>>>>>intellegance on people solely because they hold rallies on private
>>>>>>>property and gather patetions seeking redress of greviences, then by
>>>>>>>gum I am sure glad that we do not have you in government James.
>>>>>>>Nixon
>>>>>>>was forced to resign over his taps and his intellegence gathering on
>>>>>>>private citizens and the other illegal activitites he engaged in and
>>>>>>>only a pardon kept him from being rightly tried for his actions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:59:23 -0800
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Good Lord Phil. You think because the Feds were watching you when
>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>were an activist entails an impeachable offense?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I've had to shoulder my way through Feds during the 80's when they
>>>>>>>>were watching the activists demonstrating against Forest Service
>>>>>>>>timber harvest plans in the Nez Perce Natl. Forest. They were there
>>>>>>>>because wacko-pinkos like you some times go to far and endanger
>>>>>>>>others
>>>>>>>>lives and it was Federal ground. in that environment stories whirl
>>>>>>>>around like wildfire. A logging comrade infiltrated the Picko's
>>>>>>>>defenses (we were as hippy looking as them) just because they had
>>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>good looking women in their group. All-in-all it was great fun and
>>>>>>>>baiting the Marshals was just a part of the time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Our founding fathers specifically made it our duty to protect the
>>>>>>>>Constitution and Bill of Rights from a government that misuses their
>>>>>>>>power. To not defend our country from this government is the moral
>>>>>>>>crime.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: chapandmaize at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 09:05:24 -0800
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Not to put too fine a point on it, having been spied on by the
>>>>>>>>>Clinton Administration, having been threatened by officials of the
>>>>>>>>>Clinton Justice Department for organizing rallies and opposition to
>>>>>>>>>their policies and even having had the pleasure of mobilization of
>>>>>>>>>BATF and Marshals to "surround" my home, I think I can safely say
>>>>>>>>>that a lot of pretty stupid things happened that were very
>>>>>>>>>actionable
>>>>>>>>>during the Clinton Years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When I organized a 2000 person Rally in Salmon during the Central
>>>>>>>>>Idaho Forest Injunction, attended by not only the town folk, but
>>>>>>>>>also
>>>>>>>>>every single employee of the BLM and USFS, the DOJ tapped my phone
>>>>>>>>>without warrant, called BLM personnel and threatened their jobs for
>>>>>>>>>any association with me, though I was working with them at the time
>>>>>>>>>to improve habitat, warned USFS folks who were friends that they
>>>>>>>>>intended arresting me (Though for the life of me I have no idea
>>>>>>>>>what
>>>>>>>>>sort of charge other than exercise of free speech could have been
>>>>>>>>>levied) and even had a team of armed folks come to Salmon. When
>>>>>>>>>our
>>>>>>>>>Senators and Congressmen came up for a follow-up rally that
>>>>>>>>>demanded
>>>>>>>>>the lifting of the Forest injunction in a car convoy from Boise,
>>>>>>>>>Federal Marshals tailed them as possible radical elements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I did what I normally do. I got with Dave Crosting of the BLM and
>>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>>took the BATF and Marshall's guys out for a beer, introduced them
>>>>>>>>>around town, let them know that there was no dangerous revolution
>>>>>>>>>happening and then hit the phones to DOJ to get them to back off.
>>>>>>>>>The Marshals told us that DOJ had fed them that we were some sort
>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>a Militia Group bent on murdering Federal Employees, yet the
>>>>>>>>>picture
>>>>>>>>>in the Idaho Falls Post Register (Jerry Brady's paper in Idaho
>>>>>>>>>Falls)
>>>>>>>>>showed I and the SO of the Salmon National Forest and the local
>>>>>>>>>head
>>>>>>>>>of BLM doing a power salute together at the very first rally. Mr.
>>>>>>>>>Lipschitz of the DOJ's Office of Environmental Litigation had
>>>>>>>>>claimed
>>>>>>>>>that we were marching with a thousand POed ranchers to burn down
>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>offices of the Salmon National Forest, though how he would
>>>>>>>>>determine
>>>>>>>>>that from DC was hard to figure and where one would find a thousand
>>>>>>>>>ranchers in Lemhi County was even harder to determine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When actual militia types showed up in Salmon trying to exploit the
>>>>>>>>>bad vibes created by the Clinton Administration's actions, we threw
>>>>>>>>>them out of town. When militia types bulldozed McKim Creek to make
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>political statement, destroying salmon redds in the process, I not
>>>>>>>>>only pushed to have them prosecuted, testified at the trail that
>>>>>>>>>put
>>>>>>>>>them in Jail for ten years, I rolled up my sleeves, raised money
>>>>>>>>>locally and cleaned the site up (USFS did not have the funds to do
>>>>>>>>>so
>>>>>>>>>and asked for my help to get the redds back into shape before the
>>>>>>>>>fish returned in Spring). That did not stop the harassment I went
>>>>>>>>>through with Peter Lipschitz at DOJ or his counterpart at the
>>>>>>>>>Council
>>>>>>>>>on Environmental Quality. I had an FBI file an inch and a half
>>>>>>>>>thick
>>>>>>>>>by 1998 and I had committed not one illegal act in my life.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>And through all of that, James, I held as I do now, that
>>>>>>>>>impeachment
>>>>>>>>>and hate were a useless response and that revolution and other such
>>>>>>>>>talk was a waste of breath. If one disagrees with a Federal
>>>>>>>>>Policy,
>>>>>>>>>the proper action is to oppose it in the sphere of politics, to
>>>>>>>>>organize fellow voters and to vote the rascals out. As I told the
>>>>>>>>>crazy militia people, take an American flag and Piss on it and
>>>>>>>>>grind
>>>>>>>>>it into the dust, because that is what any person who talks
>>>>>>>>>revolution is really doing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>From: "James Reynolds" <chapandmaize at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:25:33 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Phil,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Clinton was impeached, he just was not removed from office because
>>>>>>>>>>lying about an extramarital affair was not a crime worthy of
>>>>>>>>>>removing him. However lying to get a war started and illegally
>>>>>>>>>>spying on the American people (and lying about this also) are two
>>>>>>>>>>crimes that are not only impeachable offenses but are definitely
>>>>>>>>>>worthy of removal. Is he guilty? Hell yes. Will he be impeached?
>>>>>>>>>>Hell no. Why not? Because we have a pathetic congress that only
>>>>>>>>>>thinks of their individual wealth accumulation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I reiterate that this is not about Clinton vs. Bush nor Republican
>>>>>>>>>>vs Democrat. The current battle is between the American people and
>>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>>self centered government. Impeachment is not enough we need a
>>>>>>>>>>revolution to replace this mess and start again with the
>>>>>>>>>>Constitution once again as our guiding document.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>James
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>To: ophite at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:20:28 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Andreas
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that is fairly assumptive. I for one was pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>strongly opposed to the impeachment process at the time. A lot
>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>people in the GOP who did not care of many a Clinton Policy were
>>>>>>>>>>>also opposed. Had they not been, Clinton would have been
>>>>>>>>>>>impeached.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Not all Republicans or conservatives were Clinton haters, that is
>>>>>>>>>>>folks who would believe absolutely anything and foam at the mouth
>>>>>>>>>>>for Clinton's blood. I seem to recall any number of liberal
>>>>>>>>>>>Democratic friends who said at that time that if the shoe was on
>>>>>>>>>>>the other foot, they would act differently and that we should
>>>>>>>>>>>remember the President was the President for all Americans.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Do you see any difference between the Clinton haters who had him
>>>>>>>>>>>plotting to kill girls he had slept with and sending Chinese
>>>>>>>>>>>secret
>>>>>>>>>>>agents ;to get bribe money or plot to overthrow the government
>>>>>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>>>>>the folks now who see the same crazy thing going down with Bush?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Reality is that America did not disappear in the last years of
>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>>Clinton Administration and it will not disappear in the last
>>>>>>>>>>>years
>>>>>>>>>>>of the Bush one either. All the talk of revolution then was hot
>>>>>>>>>>>air and the same is true now. Heck I would be glad to pull up
>>>>>>>>>>>some
>>>>>>>>>>>of the 1940's stuff that was going around screaming the exact
>>>>>>>>>>>same
>>>>>>>>>>>thing about FDR. Its been 65 years since those rants about
>>>>>>>>>>>Imperial Presidencies and war mongering and destroying our rights
>>>>>>>>>>>and shock and amazement, America is actually freer now than then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Phil Nisbet
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>From: "Andreas Schou" <ophite at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>CC: vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Eavesdropping
>>>>>>>>>>>>Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 23:45:59 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On 2/27/06, Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>> > Oh, Yes! Lets get someone else who for years will suck up >
>>>>>>>>>>>>money
>>>>>>>>>>>>and come
>>>>>>>>>>>> > up with no real answers...it is a great system for using up
>>>>>>>>>>>>funds that
>>>>>>>>>>>> > aren't needed somewhere else!
>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Funny. That doesn't seem to have been your opinion when it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>pointless
>>>>>>>>>>>>investigation of Clinton that was the issue.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>-- ACS
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>http://www.fsr.net
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>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>>>http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>>>>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
>>>>>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>>>http://www.fsr.net
>>>>>>mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>>FREE!
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>>>>_____________________________________________________
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>>>>communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>>>
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>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>_____________________________________________________
>>List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
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>>
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>>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>
>>
>
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