[Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission

[Michael]

BL-

 

I was truly interested in whether or not you would find it ok to say that a
woman "should submit" during a date. 

 

However, it seems to me that if you don't mind the idea of submission during
a date, then whether or not the gap is too big between a one day date and a
20 year date seems to be the very proposition on the table for discussion.
Let's move it another step: After some of these dates, the guy tells the
girl that he just bought a house on a lake in Texas and has a BMW waiting
for her along with a wedding ring-and he did so because he thought she liked
beamers, wanted to marry him, and would not mind living in Texas.  Turns out
she does not mind living in Texas but she does not like beamers.  But she
submits and says thank you about the beamer.  And then what of the
honeymoon?  It is traditional for the guy to plan that out too.  What if the
honeymoon is three weeks long?  So perhaps we can inch along pretty well
within this analogy from a date to a marriage.  Of course, "submission" does
not require that the woman have no part in the decisions and planning; what
I am going after here is therefore the extreme cases and get right to the
point of contention: those rare cases where the husband decides without
direct input from his wife, the wife does not find the decision particularly
agreeable, but submits to the will of her husband. 

 

If the concern is with oppression, then the means for protection simply
changes between a Christian and liberal practice.  The liberal view says
that a woman is to be seen as an autonomous individual, with a will that
functionally affects her husband as much as her husband's will affects her;
her independence is her protection.  The Christian view is, at least in
part, that her dependence is her protection: the husband must be a good one.
And of course the mere existence of a principle of submission does not mean
there will not be other standard protections for women, such as societal
pressure for the husband to love his wife and legal rights for women in
abusive situations. In fact, there is nothing inconsistent with adopting a
model of submission while also holding husbands to higher critical
standards.  This is what we see in the case of ministry as well; the
minister has a position of representation, responsibility, and authority.
The minister therefore has a position of some power; this is one reason why
the minister is held to "higher standards" and why domineering must be
opposed in the strongest terms in order to protect those dependent on the
minister's guidance.  And if that doesn't sit right, consider that there is
little difference with this and the relationship between a professor and a
graduate student-which is why I am glad to have good professors currently :
-)  

 

Michael

 

 

M-

I don't get the "analogy"

there is too big a gap between a first date and the kind of permanent
married submissive relationship of the Church.

BL

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Michael <mailto:metzler at moscow.com>  

To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 1:16 PM

Subject: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission

 

BL-

 

Correct.  My point was more along the lines of: we have hardly begun to get
at the issues yet.

 

An analogy comes to mind:  A girl finally gets asked out on a date from the
guy she has been eyeing for a month; let's say that it is the understanding
that his initiative in requesting the date is consistent with his planning
the date.  If the girl "goes along with" the guy's decisions even if her
preferences might have been a bit different, would it be appropriate
(romantically, aesthetically, socially, morally) to say that the girl
"should submit" to the guy's decisions on this date?  

 

I'm curious what your intuition would be.

 

Thanks

Michael

 

 

M-

You say: "Having different roles does not logically require submission."

I agree.  However, I understood Doug Wilson to require that (since the man
is the head of the household) that the wife must submit to his decisions.

BL

 

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