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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>BL-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I was truly interested in whether or not you would find it
ok to say that a woman “should submit” during a date. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>However, it seems to me that if you don’t mind the
idea of submission during a date, then whether or not the gap is too big
between a one day date and a 20 year date seems to be the very proposition on
the table for discussion. Let’s move it another step: After some of
these dates, the guy tells the girl that he just bought a house on a lake in
Texas and has a BMW waiting for her along with a wedding ring—and he did
so because he thought she liked beamers, wanted to marry him, and would not
mind living in Texas. Turns out she does not mind living in <st1:State
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Texas</st1:place></st1:State> but she does not
like beamers. But she submits and says thank you about the beamer.
And then what of the honeymoon? It is traditional for the guy to plan
that out too. What if the honeymoon is three weeks long? So perhaps
we can inch along pretty well within this analogy from a date to a marriage. Of
course, “submission” does not require that the woman have no part
in the decisions and planning; what I am going after here is therefore the
extreme cases and get right to the point of contention: those rare cases where
the husband decides without direct input from his wife, the wife does not find
the decision particularly agreeable, but submits to the will of her husband. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If the concern is with oppression, then the means for
protection simply changes between a Christian and liberal practice. The
liberal view says that a woman is to be seen as an autonomous individual, with
a will that functionally affects her husband as much as her husband’s
will affects her; her independence is her protection. The Christian view
is, at least in part, that her dependence is her protection: the husband must
be a good one. And of course the mere existence of a principle of submission
does not mean there will not be other standard protections for women, such as
societal pressure for the husband to love his wife and legal rights for women
in abusive situations. In fact, there is nothing inconsistent with adopting a
model of submission while also holding husbands to higher critical
standards. This is what we see in the case of ministry as well; the
minister has a position of representation, responsibility, and authority.
The minister therefore has a position of some power; this is one reason why the
minister is held to “higher standards” and why domineering must be
opposed in the strongest terms in order to protect those dependent on the
minister’s guidance. And if that doesn’t sit right, consider
that there is little difference with this and the relationship between a
professor and a graduate student—which is why I am glad to have good
professors currently : -) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>M-</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I don't get the "analogy"</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>there is too big a gap between a first date and the kind of
permanent married submissive relationship of the Church.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>BL</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:metzler@moscow.com"
title="mailto:metzler@moscow.com metzler@moscow.com">Michael</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Friday, June 16,
2006 1:16 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> [Vision2020] Cult
Fantasy News Flash: Roles & Submission<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>BL-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Correct. My point was more along the lines of: we have
hardly begun to get at the issues yet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>An analogy comes to mind: A girl finally gets asked
out on a date from the guy she has been eyeing for a month; let’s say
that it is the understanding that his initiative in requesting the date is
consistent with his planning the date. If the girl “goes along with”
the guy’s decisions even if her preferences might have been a bit
different, would it be appropriate (romantically, aesthetically, socially,
morally) to say that the girl “should submit” to the guy’s
decisions on this date? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I’m curious what your intuition would be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Michael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>M-</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>You say: </span></font>"Having different roles does not
logically require submission."<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I agree. However, I understood Doug Wilson to require that (since
the man is the head of the household) that the wife must submit to his
decisions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>BL<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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