[Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash

[Bill London]

H-
Sigh.
I was hoping for more from you.
You began with your post that included the statement: "The misconceptions
I've read on this forum about Chritst Church woman are often astounding."
I took that to mean you were willing to dialog and try to clear up the
misconceptions.
So, taking you at your word, I continued with questions.
Now, your response ("I think our disagreement is about the fundamental
nature of reality which would make any post from me hopelessly inadequate.")
indicates that you have already given up, left me to wallow in my
misconceptions, and ended this attempt at dialog.
Perhaps I have a simplistic view of this, but I would hope that if you are
secure in your worldview and you are aware that others not only do not share
that view, but do not have a clue what it is, that you would be willing to
open that dialog.
I still have my questions.  Are you willing to respond?
BL

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>
To: <london at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash


> Mr. London,
>
> I think our disagreement is about the fundamental nature of reality which
> would make any post from me hopelessly inadequate. Personally, because I
> embrace the world the Apostle Paul describes, I think my husband and I
> relate to each other in such a way that maximizes our potential. G.K.
> Chesterton sums up my thoughts better than I can in his poem "Comparisons"
>
> If I set the sun beside the moon,
> And if I set the land beside the sea,
> And if I set the town beside the country,
> And if I set the man beside the woman,
> I suppose some fool would talk about one being better
>
> Different roles, different strengths, does not mean different values.
While
> I can't make any promises, if any one feels so inclined I'd be happy to
try
> and answer questions off list.
>
> Cheers, hasta la pasta, peace out, etc.
>
> Heather (now unsubscribing) Wilson
>
>
> >From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> >To: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> >Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:32:19 -0700
> >
> >H-
> >     My questions were asked in all seriousness.  Honest.  I am trying to
> >understand.  You write (below): "The misconceptions I've read on this
forum
> >about Chritst Church woman are often astounding."
> >     I would hope that you would use this opportunity to explain those
> >misconceptions.
> >     Let me start from the core of my concern.  We have a daughter (now
> >28).
> >During her school years, I was the stay-at-home parent.  We have a very
> >strong relationship.  I could never envision limiting her goals or
> >aspirations in any way, and certainly never suggested that she should
find
> >fulfillment in a marriage where she was submissive to her husband.
> >     I just don't get it.  Why would you choose such a path for yourself?
> >Why would you choose that path for your daughters?
> >     And now to get back to your responses:
> >     1. " Does that assume husbands never make a mistake?" you say
no...but
> >how could you agree to submit to your husband unless his judgement was
> >always correct?  You would not be allowed to redirect or change your
> >husband's decision, right?  (talking about what books you read just
doesn't
> >count...I am referring to much more significant decisions)
> >     2. "Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that
they
> >are inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?"  You say no, but I do
not
> >see how the message comes through in any other way.
> >     I hope you do not leave the V2020 conversation now.
> >BL
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>
> >To: <london at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 2:05 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> >
> >
> > > Mr. London,
> > >
> > > I had trouble telling whether you were asking real questions but I'll
do
> >my
> > > best to answer in all seriousness.
> > >
> > > " Does that assume husbands never make a mistake?" I feel silly even
> > > responding to this. No. No. No. I am conviced Russians are a fun
summer
> > > read. Nate prefers Pratchett. He is wrong.
> > >
> > > "Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that they
are
> > > inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?"
> > > Same as above. No. No. No. Nate and I hope to give our daughters (and
> >son)
> > > the most thorough education available and opportunties to excell in
> > > academics, athlectics, design -- wherever they may be gifted.
Americans
> >are
> > > so bad at heiarchies, they can't help but confuse responsibility for
> > > ontological or essential superiority. Because we like the Apostle
Paul,
> > > people decide that we're thoughtless doormats.
> > >
> > > Of course, if we do everything that I would  like to do for our
> >daughters
> > > there may be some downsides. It might be tough for them to find
husbands
> >who
> > > aren't 'inferior' to them. And if they do find men strong enough to
make
> > > them happy, the poor boys will have their hands full.
> > >
> > > The misconceptions I've read on this forum about Chritst Church woman
> >are
> > > often astounding. We're far from a cookie cut batch. When I met my
> >husband,
> > > I had just surfed my first pro contest and was on my way to Ireland to
> >watch
> > > a girlfriend receive her doctorate. A good friend of mine (who also
had
> > > coffee with Keely) received a double masters from Duke in law and
> >divinity,
> > > and when she decided to pass on the country's power firms in order to
> >settle
> > > down in Moscow, she didn't think she was taking the 'inferior' path.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I'll be signing off from V2020 at the end of the day since I'm
> >too
> > > busy to keep posting and don't generally find this forum conducive to
> > > community betterment. I've enjoyed interacting with many of you face
to
> >face
> > > and I hope to do so more in the future.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Heather
> > >
> > > >From: "Bill London" <london at moscow.com>
> > > >To: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> > > >Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:40:00 -0700
> > > >
> > > >Heather:
> > > >First, many thanks for posting to V2020 (really).  The Christ Church
> >women
> > > >have been often discussed on V2020, and I am glad you are speaking
> >directly
> > > >to us now...... which brings me to my second point: I am trying to
> > > >understand the "wife submits to husband" thing.
> > > >Can you explain that to me?  Does that assume husbands never make a
> > > >mistake?
> > > >Does that mean you are explicitly telling your daughters that they
are
> > > >inferior (in skill, talent, judgement, etc)?
> > > >BL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Heather Linn" <heatherlinn at hotmail.com>
> > > >To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:38 PM
> > > >Subject: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > First, I'd like to thank Keely for joining us for coffee. I'm glad
> >to
> > > >hear
> > > > > that she enjoyed herself
> > > > > as did we. However, I'd like to point out that there seems to be
an
> > > > > alternative she's missed or at least is unable to consider.
Perhaps
> >not
> > > >all
> > > > > information out there in V2020 land and the blog world
> > > > > concerning our church, our pastor, and our husbands is true.
Perhaps
> >we,
> > > > > women whom Keely views as "reasonable, intelligent and sincere in
> >their
> > > > > faith", have a better grasp on our own situations and lives than
> >those
> > > >who
> > > > > don't know us. We aren't merely "willing to endure" our husbands
and
> >our
> > > > > theology  but rather enjoy (love) them both. Why would
"intelligent"
> > > >women
> > > > > love living with domineering patriarchal peacocks? Maybe we're not
> > > >actually
> > > > > intelligent. Maybe we don't really love them. Or, the option you
> >haven't
> > > > > been willing to consider, maybe they aren't domineering at all.
> > > >Longshot,
> > > >I
> > > > > know. But it is possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > We don't "grieve, or are at least puzzled by, [your] Biblical
> >feminism,
> > > > > outspokenness against Doug
> > > > > Wilson, and [your] sharp theological disagreements with Christ
> >Church."
> > > >I've
> > > > > been curious how you've drawn your conclusions but unlike what has
> >been
> > > > > asserted, we don't all mind when people
> > > > > disagree. In fact, it can make community life a lot more
interesting
> >and
> > > > > fun.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope we still seem intelligent when you realize that we are on the
> >same
> > > >page
> > > > > as our husbands. We didn't mary stupid boys out of pity. We like
> >them.
> > > > > Mine's even funny.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Heather Wilson
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >keely emerinemix kjajmix1 at msn.com
> > > > > >Tue Jun 13 13:25:27 PDT 2006
> > > > > >Previous message: [Vision2020] Cult Fantasy News Flash
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >I appreciate Douglas Hunter's wise comments below, as well as
Joe's
> > > >point
> > > > > >that we consider Doug Wilson separately from those unfortunate
> >enough
> > > >to
> > > >be
> > > > > >shepherded by him.
> > > > >
> > > > > >I had coffee yesterday with five warm, intelligent, delightful
> >women
> > > >from
> > > > > >Christ Church.  They have every reason to presume that I am as
bad
> >and
> > > >mean
> > > > > >as some have depicted me, and yet they've decided to do what
mature
> > > >women
> > > > > >do -- spend some time with me and find out for themselves.  And I
> >am
> > > > > >grateful for the invitation extended, the warmth expressed, and
the
> > > >trust
> > > > > >presumed; I
> > > > > hope I reciprocated with the same warmth and trust.  I have
> >absolutely
> > > > > >nothing against them and would welcome a friendship with any of
> >them --
> > > >as
> > > > > >much as I grieve the bad theology they've embraced, or are
willing
> >to
> > > > > >endure,  and the hyper-patriarchal and hierarchical worldview it
> > > >produces
> > > > > >that, I'm convinced, is as bad for men as it is for women.
> > > > >
> > > > > >But I would imagine they grieve, or are at least puzzled by, my
> > > >Biblical
> > > > > >feminism, outspokenness against Doug Wilson, and my sharp
> >theological
> > > > > >disagreements with Christ Church.  That's fair.  In fact, that's
> >great.
> > > >I
> > > > > >only hope that we can discuss it more.  I have no doubt at all
that
> >it
> > > > > >would be a loving, reasonable, intelligent and stimulating
> >discussion,
> > > > > >because these women, like most of the folks at Christ Church, are
> > > > > >reasonable, intelligent and sincere in their faith.  For every
> >unloving
> > > > > >Kirk man, many of whom we're all acquainted with here, I know
there
> >are
> > > > > >several more, men and women, who love Christ and are willing to
> >love
> >me
> > > >in
> > > > > >His name.   I feel he same way.
> > > > >
> > > > > >That doesn't negate my concern and anger about what I know of
> >Wilson's
> > > > > >world and worldview.  In fact, it heightens it.  I love a good
roll
> >in
> > > >the
> > > > > >theological hay of debate, but what's of real consequence is that
> >real
> > > > > >people -- good people -- get hurt by bad theology and worse
> >conduct.
> > > > > >Conscience compels me, then, to defend them and to defend the
> >Gospel --
> > > >to
> > > > > >offer, with gentleness and respect, a reason for the hope that
lies
> > > >within
> > > > > >me; further paraphrasing 1 Peter 3:15, I might add that I hope to
> >offer
> > > >a
> > > > > >reason for the anger and concern that lies within me regarding
the
> > > >Kirk,
> > > > > >and I hope that I've done it with gentleness and respect to the
> >sincere
> > > >and
> > > > > >offered clear, truth-building rebuke when needed.
> > > > >
> > > > > >And so, I'd like to publicly thank my friend Heather Wilson and
her
> > > > > >sister-in-law, Meredith Wilson, for a delightful morning
yesterday.
> > > >(And
> > > > > >it wasn't just the delicious coffee cake and great coffee,
either!)
> > > > >
> > > > > >keely
> > > > >
> > > > >
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