[Vision2020] the pledge

Fri Jan 27 09:11:08 PST 2006

Joe,

The same argument you make here is valid for objecting to officially sanctioned prayers during public meetings -- the infliction of religious beliefs on those who might not share them.  Anyone can pray to themselves at any time and hardly anyone would object.

Likewise, anyone can recite the pledge to themselves at anytime before, during, or after the council meetings.

However, 
worst of all, I find it not only grossly insulting, arrogant, and ignorant but actually quite unpatriotic to claim that those who object to the continual ritualistic recitation of the pledge, singing the national anthem, and/or etc on every public occasion are somehow not good citizens who do not love their country enough.  

We have already heard from several who have served in the military and/or whose families served in the military that not saying the pledge is OK with them for a number of reasons.  There are others of us who have served our country in one or more different ways than the military but not without personal risk and sacrifice who feel the same way.

I think that Mayor Chaney's idea to vary the openings of the council meetings with various different relevant, thought provoking recitations is far more likely to inspire and to cause those present to think about and to appreciate what living in this country under our constitution really means.  Hence, in my opinion Major Chaney's approach is quite patriotic, more likely to bring about enlightened patriotic thoughts and actions, and shows real courage and thoughtfulness on her part and those on the council who agree.

We need to remember that one of the greatest things about living in this country is our freedom of expression we have and cherish.  For many of us who served in various ways, freedom of expression was the most important ideal we served for.  Major Chaney has offered a way to use this freedom in a manner more likely to promote the ideals embodied in our constitution than the repeated liturgical chanting of the same words over and over again.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: joekc at adelphia.net 
To: Donovan Arnold 
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] the pledge

Again, there is a difference between saying that saying the Pledge is a waste of time and saying that it takes too much time. That was my only point. I did not claim that saying the Pledge was like picking up a penny. 

Why would anyone who wants to say the Pledge need to say it in the Chamber in front of others? Why isn't saying the Pledge in one's own place and on one's own time enough for those who want to say it? Perhaps you, Donovan, think that saying the Pledge has some value. Fine; I agree. Say the Pledge whenever you want. But what has that to do with compelling others to say it on a regular basis? Note that this is a general point that I am making. Personally, I share your view, Donovan. Were I on council, I would come out BEFORE each council meeting and say the Pledge. What I wouldn't do is try to inflict my own ideas of patriotism on others. 

Also, it is unfair to suggest that the mayor and council were hiding anything. When asked why the Pledge was not said two council members and our wonderful mayor addressed the issue directly, in this very forum.
--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold wrote:

=============
Joe,

Don Huskey was the one that claimed John Dickinson made the argument, (I mistakenly believed him) it was a waste of time to say the pledge. However, I disagree, and I think what you get out of it, learning respect for your countrymen and women that gave so much for what you now have, is well worth more than the penny in your analogy.

What you should be asking is Joe, is why the City Council and Mayor did not say anything before or after they made the decision to ax the Pledge? Were they thinking it was not important? Or just hoping we would not notice? Did it slip their minds? Did they not care what the people they represent feel or want? Either way, it should give you pause.

As for the "Those who wish to recite the Pledge before council meetings can do so."--I do not think so. Anyone that recites the Pledge will be ruled out of order and can be removed from the chamber by law enforcement.

Take Care,

_DJA

joekc at adelphia.net wrote: Roger,
I don't recall anyone saying that council should not say the Pledge because it takes too much time. Donovan posted that it was a bad reason to offer but no one -- in my recollection -- every offered this as a reason. Don Huskey claimed that saying the Pledge was a waste of time but this is a different point. Picking up a penny is a waste of time -- in the end you only have a penny for your efforts -- but it doesn't take a lot of time.

I agree -- very much -- with the last point that you made but one can support either side of the debate with that point. For instance, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and requiring them NOT to say the Pledge. Those who wish to recite the Pledge before council meetings can do so. I think they should do it BEFORE council starts since council and the mayor have decided not to say it on a regular basis. I find it interesting that some folks are not satisfied with saying the Pledge or a prayer in private. They must say it in front of others and must compel others to say it with them. This indicates to me that saying the Pledge or praying is more of a political gesture than it is a patriotic or religious one. For SOME people, at least.
--
Joe Campbell

---- lfalen wrote:

=============
Most of the comments for not saying the pledge are accurate enough, except for it takings to long. It takes less than a minute. That is not much time out of any busy schedule. It is true that scoundrels would not have o problem saying the pledge. As samuel Johnson said " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel". None of this is a justification for not saying it. That is like "throwing the baby out with the bath water" The pledge serves a useful purpose. It is good to reaffirm allegiance to our country. The continued dropping of things patriotic eventually leads to a disrespect for the country. There is enough revisionist history already that reminds everyone of how many worts we have. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and requiring them to say it. Have it presented. Those that want to recite it can do so. Any one who does not want to can remain silent or leave out passages they don't agree with.

Roger

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