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<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>Joe,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>The same argument you make here is valid for
objecting to officially sanctioned prayers during public meetings -- the
infliction of religious beliefs on those who might not share them. Anyone
can pray to themselves at any time and hardly anyone would object.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>Likewise, anyone can recite the pledge to
themselves at anytime before, during, or after the council
meetings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=6><STRONG>However, </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>worst of all, I find it not only grossly
insulting, arrogant, and ignorant but actually quite <STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: red; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">unpatriotic</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; BACKGROUND: #00ccff; COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"></SPAN></STRONG>
to claim that those who object to the continual ritualistic recitation of the
pledge, singing the national anthem, and/or etc on every public occasion are
somehow not good citizens who do not love their country enough.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>We have already heard from several who have
served in the military and/or whose families served in the military that not
saying the pledge is OK with them for a number of reasons. There are
others of us who have served our country in one or more different ways than the
military but not without personal risk and sacrifice who feel the same
way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>I think that Mayor Chaney's idea to vary the
openings of the council meetings with various different relevant, thought
provoking recitations is far more likely to inspire and to cause those
present to think about and to appreciate what living in this country under our
constitution really means. Hence, in my opinion Major Chaney's approach
is quite patriotic, more likely to bring about enlightened patriotic
thoughts and <FONT color=#0000ff size=5><STRONG>actions</STRONG></FONT>, and
shows real courage and thoughtfulness on her part and those on the council who
agree.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4>We need to remember that one of the greatest
things about living in this country is our freedom of expression we have and
cherish. For many of us who served in various ways, freedom of expression
was the most important ideal we served for. Major Chaney has offered a way
to use this freedom in a manner more likely to promote the ideals embodied in
our constitution than the repeated liturgical chanting of the same
words over and over again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=joekc@adelphia.net href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net">joekc@adelphia.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, January 27, 2006 7:20 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] the pledge</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Again, there is a difference between saying that saying the Pledge is a waste
of time and saying that it takes too much time. That was my only point. I did
not claim that saying the Pledge was like picking up a penny. </P>
<P>Why would anyone who wants to say the Pledge need to say it in the Chamber in
front of others? Why isn't saying the Pledge in one's own place and on one's own
time enough for those who want to say it? Perhaps you, Donovan, think that
saying the Pledge has some value. Fine; I agree. Say the Pledge whenever you
want. But what has that to do with compelling others to say it on a regular
basis? Note that this is a general point that I am making. Personally, I share
your view, Donovan. Were I on council, I would come out BEFORE each council
meeting and say the Pledge. What I wouldn't do is try to inflict my own ideas of
patriotism on others. </P>
<P>Also, it is unfair to suggest that the mayor and council were hiding
anything. When asked why the Pledge was not said two council members and our
wonderful mayor addressed the issue directly, in this very forum.<BR>--<BR>Joe
Campbell<BR><BR>---- Donovan Arnold <DONOVANJARNOLD2005
yahoo.com="#DEFAULT">wrote:<BR><BR>=============<BR>Joe,<BR><BR>Don Huskey was
the one that claimed John Dickinson made the argument, (I mistakenly believed
him) it was a waste of time to say the pledge. However, I disagree, and I think
what you get out of it, learning respect for your countrymen and women that gave
so much for what you now have, is well worth more than the penny in your
analogy.<BR><BR>What you should be asking is Joe, is why the City Council and
Mayor did not say anything before or after they made the decision to ax the
Pledge? Were they thinking it was not important? Or just hoping we would not
notice? Did it slip their minds? Did they not care what the people they
represent feel or want? Either way, it should give you pause.<BR><BR>As for the
"Those who wish to recite the Pledge before council meetings can do so."--I do
not think so. Anyone that recites the Pledge will be ruled out of order and can
be removed from the chamber by law enforcement.<BR><BR>Take
Care,<BR><BR>_DJA<BR><BR><BR><BR>joekc@adelphia.net wrote: Roger,<BR>I don't
recall anyone saying that council should not say the Pledge because it takes too
much time. Donovan posted that it was a bad reason to offer but no one -- in my
recollection -- every offered this as a reason. Don Huskey claimed that saying
the Pledge was a waste of time but this is a different point. Picking up a penny
is a waste of time -- in the end you only have a penny for your efforts -- but
it doesn't take a lot of time.<BR><BR>I agree -- very much -- with the last
point that you made but one can support either side of the debate with that
point. For instance, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and requiring them
NOT to say the Pledge. Those who wish to recite the Pledge before council
meetings can do so. I think they should do it BEFORE council starts since
council and the mayor have decided not to say it on a regular basis. I find it
interesting that some folks are not satisfied with saying the Pledge or a prayer
in private. They must say it in front of others and must compel others to say it
with them. This indicates to me that saying the Pledge or praying is more of a
political gesture than it is a patriotic or religious one. For SOME people, at
least.<BR>--<BR>Joe Campbell<BR><BR>---- lfalen
wrote:<BR><BR>=============<BR>Most of the comments for not saying the pledge
are accurate enough, except for it takings to long. It takes less than a minute.
That is not much time out of any busy schedule. It is true that scoundrels would
not have o problem saying the pledge. As samuel Johnson said " Patriotism is the
last refuge of the scoundrel". None of this is a justification for not saying
it. That is like "throwing the baby out with the bath water" The pledge serves a
useful purpose. It is good to reaffirm allegiance to our country. The continued
dropping of things patriotic eventually leads to a disrespect for the country.
There is enough revisionist history already that reminds everyone of how many
worts we have. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head and requiring them to
say it. Have it presented. Those that want to recite it can do so. Any one who
does not want to can remain silent or leave out passages they don't agree
with.<BR><BR>Roger<BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR>List
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