[Vision2020] A Polite Request

[Tony]

Saundra, I found your response to Chas' call for civility to be both 
fascinating and sincere.  You mention that both liberals as well as 
conservatives have demonstrated a lack of interest in "harmony and 
consideration and diversity and mutual respect."  Curiously though, it may 
be a very real demand for diversity which fuels them both.  A genuine 
diversity that allows ALL sides of an argument a fair hearing, with neither 
one automatically derided as "reactionary" or some other dismissive epithet.

I do have to take issue with your characterization of me as both a racist 
and a sexist.  My use of the term RAGHEAD which you misunderstood to be an 
assault on all Muslims, was in fact intended to malign ONLY those bomb 
throwing sociopaths who have given that faith a bad name.  I pointed this 
intent of mine out several times - you choose to disregard my own motivation 
in favor of that which you would attribute erroneously to me.  As for sexual 
harassment, none has taken place.  I used some innocent and playful 
approaches in some cases which only a very uptight and manifestly intolerant 
individual would find unacceptable in a free country.  In some cases this 
approach was used when I was similarly chided.  I think we need to allow one 
another a little latitude to express ourselves as we are accustomed.  If we 
disagree we are free to dissent.  If we are too whacked out, no one will 
respond and we will be excluded from the table of civilized society.  But if 
our views are forcefully presented but sincere and heartfelt, how could 
another fault us simply because we failed to employ their favorite cliché's 
or adhere to their particular orthodoxy?

Your message ended with a most incredible bit of indignation.  You call me 
intolerant for highlighting the fact that Christmas is a celebration of 
CHRIST'S birth!  I was saying absolutely NOTHING about any other religion. 
I was not demanding exclusion of ANY other religion.  It was presumptuous of 
you too assume that such was the case.  You insist that I am racist and 
exclusionary and then condemn me for behaviors I have not demonstrated.  I 
highlighted CHRIST'S name because this is a celebration of HIS birthday - 
period.  Switch to decaff for Pete's sake.

We have ALL been the targets of "dismissive, hurtful and unfair" commentary 
from time to time.  Some of us can tolerate it due to a genuine appreciation 
for, and understanding of, the first amendment - others apparently cannot.

Have a blessed CHRISTmas!   -Tony
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
To: "'Chasuk'" <chasuk at gmail.com>; "'Vision2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Polite Request


> Hi Chas & All Visionaries,
>
> I appreciate the request . . . and the sentiment behind it.  Really, I do!
>
> However, while I appreciate the sentiment, it troubles me at the same 
> time.
> Having been around the Viz block a time or two or three or four, it seems
> like someone always expresses a similar sentiment around this time of 
> year.
> And, my perception is that is has little effect:  those who try to play
> nicely most of the time will continue to do so . . . and to apologize when
> they cross a line, and those who have no interest in harmony and
> consideration and diversity and mutual respect will continue on their 
> chosen
> paths.
>
> You -- or whoever -- gets to feel good for making such a reasonable 
> request,
> but the effect is minimal for a community atmosphere here, I'm sorry to 
> say.
>
> So, go ahead, folks, and take your shots at me for being a Scrooge or a
> Realist or a Pessimist or whatever.  Fool me once, shame on you, but fool 
> me
> twice, shame on *me.*  Been there, done that . . . and I've seen time and
> again that such a request relies on the good will of *all,* and the sad 
> fact
> is that some here don't have that good will.  Period.
>
> Quite frankly, it also troubles me, Chas, that with your itemized list, 
> you
> targeted only one aspect of a complete picture.  It's kind of the same
> problem I had with Roger Falen's post:  had he spoken out against Tony's
> racism or sexual harassment or sweeping generalizations targeted towards
> individuals or even *one* of the personal attacks by reactionaries against
> liberals that would have been one thing, but when he chose to speak out --
> publicly -- against someone who has been specifically targeted while
> remaining mute against the multitude of other transgressions, that speaks
> volumes in my book.
>
> I've read your subsequent post, and I understand your point, but some of 
> us
> here have been trying to show love for a long time.  And, when your 
> itemized
> list targets *only* one side, it's hurtful and dismissive and 
> disrespectful
> to *all* the other sides as well, you know?  The outing of personal
> information, the targeting of family members, the stalking, the
> name-calling, the threatening of economic livelihood, the public & private
> sexual harassment, the *true* intolerance (vs the trite "Intolerista"), 
> the
> outright refusal of some to address others with *basic* respect when
> repeatedly requested (Mr. Gier vs Dr. Gier, Mrs. Lund vs Ms. Lund, Mary vs
> Joan, etc.) . . . well, it's dismissive and hurtful . . . and unfair.  And
> we do NO ONE any favors when turning a blind eye to *all* sides of a 
> dispute
> . . .
>
> I suppose one could interpret it in a positive manner:  you have higher
> expectations from some than you do of others.  Fair enough on the surface 
> .
> . . but it's also a double standard, so it's *not* fair enough.
>
> One of my holiday wishes (in addition to world peace and the end of hunger 
> &
> inadequate medical care and intolerance and bigotry and racism and sexism
> and child abuse and elder abuse and animal abuse and corruption and
> religious intolerance and . . .and . . . and . . . and . . . ) is that 
> your
> polite request will have an effect on those who need it.
>
> But, I also hope that it won't have a silencing effect on those who have
> been mistreated and misrepresented on V2020!  I hope people will support
> their opinions with facts rather than simply parroting any "party line."
> When challenged, I hope they will respond with rationality and substance
> rather than emotion and personal attacks.
>
> And, I hope that we can send each other ***genuine*** holiday wishes 
> rather
> than trying to fit all into our own narrow little boxes.  That includes 
> the
> disrespectful of diversity capitalization of "CHRISTmas"!  Or, do you just
> want to ignore that???
>
>
> Happy Holidays,
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
>
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> - Edmund Burke
>
> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.
> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
> without the express written permission of the author.*****
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
> On Behalf Of Chasuk
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:37 PM
> To: Vision2020
> Subject: [Vision2020] A Polite Request
>
> Could we please stop with the Hairless, Comb-over, HeirDoug, Dougie-boy,
> etc?  It really is quite juvenile, and is truthfully embarrassing when it
> comes from the pens/mouths/keyboards of anyone over 12 years of age. 
> Worse,
> it negates any valid argument that they may have existed.
>
> It's soon Christmas, and after that, New Years.  Could we all agree to a 
> New
> Year's resolution to act like grown-ups?  I know, it's fun to let our 
> inner
> child out once in a while, but when we allow ourselves this freedom too
> often it grows tiresome, and when it comes from someone with who I am
> otherwise in sympathy, I am doubly dismayed because it manages with one
> thoughtless word to discredit "our side."
>
> Can we try, pretty please?
>
> Chas
>
> --
> "Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause." -- Mahatma Gandhi
>
>
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