[Vision2020] Peace and a good hot toddy to all...

[Tony]

Greetings visionaires!  This is to wish ALL of you a happy holiday.  If you 
don't celebrate this particular one, that's fine, have a pleasant time just 
the same.  Having disagreed at times vehemently with some of you does not 
mean I would wish anything but health and contentment to you, so here's to 
the community- all of us Americans- whether we see eye to eye or not.

Merry Christmas.   -T
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony" <tonytime at clearwire.net>
To: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Polite Request


> Saundra, I found your response to Chas' call for civility to be both
> fascinating and sincere.  You mention that both liberals as well as
> conservatives have demonstrated a lack of interest in "harmony and
> consideration and diversity and mutual respect."  Curiously though, it may
> be a very real demand for diversity which fuels them both.  A genuine
> diversity that allows ALL sides of an argument a fair hearing, with 
> neither
> one automatically derided as "reactionary" or some other dismissive 
> epithet.
>
> I do have to take issue with your characterization of me as both a racist
> and a sexist.  My use of the term RAGHEAD which you misunderstood to be an
> assault on all Muslims, was in fact intended to malign ONLY those bomb
> throwing sociopaths who have given that faith a bad name.  I pointed this
> intent of mine out several times - you choose to disregard my own 
> motivation
> in favor of that which you would attribute erroneously to me.  As for 
> sexual
> harassment, none has taken place.  I used some innocent and playful
> approaches in some cases which only a very uptight and manifestly 
> intolerant
> individual would find unacceptable in a free country.  In some cases this
> approach was used when I was similarly chided.  I think we need to allow 
> one
> another a little latitude to express ourselves as we are accustomed.  If 
> we
> disagree we are free to dissent.  If we are too whacked out, no one will
> respond and we will be excluded from the table of civilized society.  But 
> if
> our views are forcefully presented but sincere and heartfelt, how could
> another fault us simply because we failed to employ their favorite 
> cliché's
> or adhere to their particular orthodoxy?
>
> Your message ended with a most incredible bit of indignation.  You call me
> intolerant for highlighting the fact that Christmas is a celebration of
> CHRIST'S birth!  I was saying absolutely NOTHING about any other religion.
> I was not demanding exclusion of ANY other religion.  It was presumptuous 
> of
> you too assume that such was the case.  You insist that I am racist and
> exclusionary and then condemn me for behaviors I have not demonstrated.  I
> highlighted CHRIST'S name because this is a celebration of HIS birthday -
> period.  Switch to decaff for Pete's sake.
>
> We have ALL been the targets of "dismissive, hurtful and unfair" 
> commentary
> from time to time.  Some of us can tolerate it due to a genuine 
> appreciation
> for, and understanding of, the first amendment - others apparently cannot.
>
> Have a blessed CHRISTmas!   -Tony
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at roadrunner.com>
> To: "'Chasuk'" <chasuk at gmail.com>; "'Vision2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] A Polite Request
>
>
>> Hi Chas & All Visionaries,
>>
>> I appreciate the request . . . and the sentiment behind it.  Really, I 
>> do!
>>
>> However, while I appreciate the sentiment, it troubles me at the same
>> time.
>> Having been around the Viz block a time or two or three or four, it seems
>> like someone always expresses a similar sentiment around this time of
>> year.
>> And, my perception is that is has little effect:  those who try to play
>> nicely most of the time will continue to do so . . . and to apologize 
>> when
>> they cross a line, and those who have no interest in harmony and
>> consideration and diversity and mutual respect will continue on their
>> chosen
>> paths.
>>
>> You -- or whoever -- gets to feel good for making such a reasonable
>> request,
>> but the effect is minimal for a community atmosphere here, I'm sorry to
>> say.
>>
>> So, go ahead, folks, and take your shots at me for being a Scrooge or a
>> Realist or a Pessimist or whatever.  Fool me once, shame on you, but fool
>> me
>> twice, shame on *me.*  Been there, done that . . . and I've seen time and
>> again that such a request relies on the good will of *all,* and the sad
>> fact
>> is that some here don't have that good will.  Period.
>>
>> Quite frankly, it also troubles me, Chas, that with your itemized list,
>> you
>> targeted only one aspect of a complete picture.  It's kind of the same
>> problem I had with Roger Falen's post:  had he spoken out against Tony's
>> racism or sexual harassment or sweeping generalizations targeted towards
>> individuals or even *one* of the personal attacks by reactionaries 
>> against
>> liberals that would have been one thing, but when he chose to speak 
>> out --
>> publicly -- against someone who has been specifically targeted while
>> remaining mute against the multitude of other transgressions, that speaks
>> volumes in my book.
>>
>> I've read your subsequent post, and I understand your point, but some of
>> us
>> here have been trying to show love for a long time.  And, when your
>> itemized
>> list targets *only* one side, it's hurtful and dismissive and
>> disrespectful
>> to *all* the other sides as well, you know?  The outing of personal
>> information, the targeting of family members, the stalking, the
>> name-calling, the threatening of economic livelihood, the public & 
>> private
>> sexual harassment, the *true* intolerance (vs the trite "Intolerista"),
>> the
>> outright refusal of some to address others with *basic* respect when
>> repeatedly requested (Mr. Gier vs Dr. Gier, Mrs. Lund vs Ms. Lund, Mary 
>> vs
>> Joan, etc.) . . . well, it's dismissive and hurtful . . . and unfair. 
>> And
>> we do NO ONE any favors when turning a blind eye to *all* sides of a
>> dispute
>> . . .
>>
>> I suppose one could interpret it in a positive manner:  you have higher
>> expectations from some than you do of others.  Fair enough on the surface
>> .
>> . . but it's also a double standard, so it's *not* fair enough.
>>
>> One of my holiday wishes (in addition to world peace and the end of 
>> hunger
>> &
>> inadequate medical care and intolerance and bigotry and racism and sexism
>> and child abuse and elder abuse and animal abuse and corruption and
>> religious intolerance and . . .and . . . and . . . and . . . ) is that
>> your
>> polite request will have an effect on those who need it.
>>
>> But, I also hope that it won't have a silencing effect on those who have
>> been mistreated and misrepresented on V2020!  I hope people will support
>> their opinions with facts rather than simply parroting any "party line."
>> When challenged, I hope they will respond with rationality and substance
>> rather than emotion and personal attacks.
>>
>> And, I hope that we can send each other ***genuine*** holiday wishes
>> rather
>> than trying to fit all into our own narrow little boxes.  That includes
>> the
>> disrespectful of diversity capitalization of "CHRISTmas"!  Or, do you 
>> just
>> want to ignore that???
>>
>>
>> Happy Holidays,
>> Saundra Lund
>> Moscow, ID
>>
>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
>> nothing.
>> - Edmund Burke
>>
>> ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.
>> Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
>> without the express written permission of the author.*****
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> On Behalf Of Chasuk
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:37 PM
>> To: Vision2020
>> Subject: [Vision2020] A Polite Request
>>
>> Could we please stop with the Hairless, Comb-over, HeirDoug, Dougie-boy,
>> etc?  It really is quite juvenile, and is truthfully embarrassing when it
>> comes from the pens/mouths/keyboards of anyone over 12 years of age.
>> Worse,
>> it negates any valid argument that they may have existed.
>>
>> It's soon Christmas, and after that, New Years.  Could we all agree to a
>> New
>> Year's resolution to act like grown-ups?  I know, it's fun to let our
>> inner
>> child out once in a while, but when we allow ourselves this freedom too
>> often it grows tiresome, and when it comes from someone with who I am
>> otherwise in sympathy, I am doubly dismayed because it manages with one
>> thoughtless word to discredit "our side."
>>
>> Can we try, pretty please?
>>
>> Chas
>>
>> --
>> "Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause." -- Mahatma Gandhi
>>
>>
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>
>
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