[Vision2020] Bible question?

[Ralph Nielsen]

NIELSEN
I know there is very little humor in the Bible but the Princess can  
certainly create a lot of humor about the Bible. I found the sermon  
below extremely funny. In fact, it has kept me amused all day long.  
Thank you, Princess.

SUSHITUSHI
> Keely's response below reveals a few misunderstandings, which I shall
> endeavor to correct. First, to be damned by God is to be subject to  
> eternal
> punishment by being cut off from life in Him. The whole concept of  
> damnation
> is inseparable from a personal relationship with God, or rather,  
> the lack
> thereof. This is clear from some verses in Matthew 7 and Matthew  
> 25, which
> are worth quoting here at some length:
>
> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the  
> kingdom
> of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in  
> heaven. Many
> will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in  
> thy name?
> and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many  
> wonderful
> works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart  
> from me,
> ye that work iniquity . . . When the Son of man shall come in his  
> glory, and
> all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his
> glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall  
> separate
> them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the  
> goats: and
> he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the  
> left. Then
> shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my
> Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of  
> the
> world . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,  
> Depart from
> me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and  
> his angels
> .. . . and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the  
> righteous
> into life eternal."
>
> Note that God says here to the damned, "I never knew you." He  
> refuses to
> recognize or have anything to do with them, and such eternal  
> separation from
> God is their punishment: that constitutes the main "feature" of  
> eternal
> death and damnation.

NIELSEN
First of all, Sushi lacks the common courtesy of providing book,  
chapter and verse for her Bible quotes. In the Old Testament God  
never damned anyone to eternal punishment. In the New Testament, the  
issue is rather vague. The Son of Man, to whom Sushi refers, is  
clearly not God. Who does she think she's kidding?

> SUSHI
> So one thing which follows from this is, institutions are not  
> damned by God.
> God does not have relationships with institutions; rather, he has
> relationships with persons. Institutions, whether established by  
> God or by
> man, are frameworks for interpersonal relationships, but God does  
> not have
> relationships with institutions, and therefore they cannot be  
> damned by
> being cut off, except perhaps insofar as we might use the word  
> "institution"
> to describe a group of persons. Persons are capable of being damned.

NIELSEN
God doesn't have relations with institutions? Come on now. Anyone who  
reads the Bible knows that it says that God has an everlasting  
relationship with his Chosen People, the Jews. That concept is the  
background for almost the entire Hebrew Bible (Old Testament to  
Christians).

> SUSHI
> Keely's next point about Joe Blow is half right and half in error.  
> The part
> that is right is, we are never to call for the damnation of any  
> human being.
> All human beings except for Jesus of Nazareth are sinners and, in  
> and of
> themselves, are worthy of damnation. But God does not damn all  
> people. He
> graciously saves many people, and the graciousness of that  
> salvation cannot
> be over-emphasized. No Christian has a right to dictate to God that He
> should damn anyone. It is enough to know that some people are  
> damned, and to
> fear and tremble. It is enough to know that insofar as we have a  
> living
> relationship with God, it is purely because we are the recipients  
> of grace,
> without which we would be every bit as damned as Judas Iscariot. So  
> who are
> we to call on God to damn anyone? Here is an interesting pertinent  
> Bible
> verse: "Yet Michael the archangel [another name for the pre-incarnate
> Jesus], when contending with the devil . . . durst not bring  
> against him a
> railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Until the time  
> for
> judgment comes, even Jesus, even when speaking with Satan himself,  
> does not
> damn him, but says simply "the Lord rebuke thee."
>
> And I may be wrong but I cannot recall a single place in the Bible  
> where any
> person in a living relationship with God is shown actually praying  
> for the
> damnation of another person.

NIELSEN
Sushi can't show us a single person in the entire Hebrew Bible (OT)  
who was damned to eternal punishment in hell. And would Sushi please  
tell us where the Bible, or any other source, says that "Michael the  
archangel [is another name for the pre-incarnate Jesus]?" Chapter and  
verse, please.
> SUSHI
> And this brings me to the part of Keely's statement that is very  
> wrong: the
> notion that imprecatory prayer has anything to do with calling for the
> damnation of other people. That is a complete mischaracterization and
> misrepresentation of imprecatory prayer. Imprecatory prayer is  
> defensible;
> praying for someone's damnation is not.
>
> How is this for a prayer? --
>
> "O father in Heaven, look at wicked, oppressive Joe Blow over  
> there. I ask
> you to grant him his every desire. Please give him great wealth,  
> perfect
> health, long life, handsome good looks, popularity, success, fame,  
> respect
> among men, and anything else he might desire. Because I know that  
> the one
> thing he does not desire is a living relationship with You, O  
> Father, and if
> You grant him his every desire in this life, he will never seek  
> You, he will
> never be brought to repentance, and some day at the ripe old age of  
> 150,
> without a care in the world, he will die in his sleep with a smile  
> on his
> face and then he will be separated from You and suffer damnation  
> and torment
> in the Lake of Fire for all eternity. That's what he deserves, and  
> that's
> what I ask You to give him, so please see that his every desire is  
> fulfilled
> so that he will never have the faintest inclination to repent, turn  
> to You,
> and be saved."
>
> That is by no means an imprecatory prayer that God wants us to pray.
>
> Imprecatory prayer is nagging God to stop just sitting there on the
> sidelines but to get up and deal with the problems that we face  
> down here.
> It is asking God to come in judgment, but that is not at all the  
> same as
> asking God to come and exercise final, eternal damnatory judgment  
> against
> someone. The person who prays an imprecatory prayer is well aware that
> damnation is a theoretical outcome of God's judgment. But  
> repentance and
> salvation is also a theoretical outcome. And, most importantly, God's
> greater glorification and the ultimate advancement of His kingdom is
> certainly an outcome that is in view when someone prays imprecatory  
> prayer.
> And that is entirely defensible.
>
> -- Princess Sushitushi

NIELSEN
Yes, Princess, your God is an oriental despot who just loves to be  
praised and flattered, as if he couldn't see through your sleazy  
hypocrisy. But I'm sure you will continue to distort the Bible until  
the time comes when you, too, will return to the dust from which God  
made you.

>
> "keely emerinemix" <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
>
> [[ I'm not an expert, but I think it would be correct to say that  
> "goddamn
> it!"
> is a sinful abuse of God's name, but "Oppression breaks the backs  
> and hearts
> of millions in our world.  God, please, damn the institutions that  
> enable it
> .. . . " would be an appropriate prayer.  "God, please damn Joe  
> Blow" would
> be imprecatory and utterly indefensible. ]]
>