[Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore Gras"Killing Babies!

Mon Aug 28 21:29:19 PDT 2006

Did you read this carefully, Doug, before you posted it? There is no information here suggesting that abortion takes 15-18 days, like the torture necessary for foie gras.

For instance, you say that there are three steps to the one particular procedure you note below but in Step 2 it says "This is the abortion." Step 3 is listed as a "follow-up visit."

In any event, you're missing the point. I don't don't need you to tell me that abortion is a bad thing, for I already believe that it is. Our disagreement has more to do with issues in philosophy of law than moral theory.

You write: "I love that argument about having compassion for the woman." I have no idea what argument you're talking about here but it wasn't mine. My reasons for not restricting abortion any more than it already is has nothing to do with compassion for women. Rather it has to do with respect for people to make their own personal decisions about these matters instead of the govenment. I've talked about this. What is your response?

I don't want to read the website for Care Net of the Palouse. I feel confident that some of that money is going to go toward shifting the burden of our personal moral choices from the individual to the government. I think I spelled out pretty clearly why I think that this is not the right thing to do. What is your response to those arguments?

Yes, I did know the below fact about the pill. Did you know that, back when abortion and the pill were illegal, women used coat hangers to do the job?

Lastly, I wonder why you take so much joy in insulting gays and lesbians in public. Do you think that this is somehow going to win them over to your side? What, really, is your goal in being continually offensive in this way? (Here I'm referring to your more detailed replies to Keely -- not just the "sodomite" reference below.) And, given that you and others are so offensive, why does it surprise you when others use terms like "Androids" to refer to NSA students? These are not rhetorical questions. I just don't get it.

Best, Joe

---- heirdoug at netscape.net wrote: 

=============
Joe,

I was waiting to reply to the topic when I had more time. But your 
comment about how long an abortion took caught my eye.
I got this info off of the Planned Barrenhood site. (Thanks Tom-Tom for 
the url)

"How Medication Abortion Works

There are three steps for medication abortion:

STEP ONE
Your clinician will give you a dose of either mifepristone or 
methotrexate at the clinic.

Mifepristone — blocks the hormone progesterone. Without progesterone, 
the lining of the uterus breaks down, ending the pregnancy.

Methotrexate — stops the growth of the pregnancy in the uterus. It can 
also stop the growth of pregnancies that develop in a fallopian tube — 
ectopic pregnancies.

STEP TWO
You will take a second medication — misoprostol. Misoprostol softens 
the cervix and causes the uterus to contract and empty.

You and your clinician will plan the timing and place for the second 
step — you may take the second medicine at home. Or you may need to 
return to the clinic. Your clinician will give you instructions on how 
to take it.

You will take the misoprostol

up to three days after taking mifepristone
about five days after taking methotrexate

After you take the misoprostol you will most likely start to bleed 
heavily within hours or days. This is the abortion. You may see large 
blood clots or tissue at the time of the abortion.

STEP THREE
You will return to your clinician for a follow-up visit within two 
weeks.

Follow-up visit. Your clinician needs to make sure the abortion is 
complete and that you are well. You will need an ultrasound or blood 
test.How Long an Abortion Takes

Medication Abortion
Medication abortion is a process that begins immediately after taking 
mifepristone or methotrexate. Some women may begin bleeding before 
taking misoprostol. For most, the bleeding and cramping begin after 
taking the misoprostol.

More than 50 percent of women who use mifepristone abort within four or 
five hours after taking misoprostol. Bleeding may continue for about 13 
days. Spotting can last for a few weeks. About 92 percent of 
mifepristone abortions are completed within a week. About 75 percent of 
methotrexate abortions are completed within a week. But in 15-20 
percent of women it can take up to four weeks."

Now who is suffering.....? I love that argument about having compassion 
for the woman.

It's all about money and who is raking it in by raking "it" out!

As to your lame argument about not knowing what Care Net of the Palouse 
does with your money here is their web page 
http://www.carenetofthepalouse.org/ so you can read for your self.

lemeno, Doug!

PS. Did you know that the "Pill" has a chemical in it that will cause 
an abortion if one happens to slip by?

PPS: I would rather have a live sodomite or Iraqi than a garbage pail 
full of little baby body parts!

-----Original Message-----
From: joekc at adelphia.net
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore 
Gras"Killing Babies!

If an abortion took 15-18 days, my views on the comparitive difference 
between
abortion and fois gras would be different, Donovan.
--
Joe Campbell

---- Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

=============
Saundra,

Stop twisting everything people say and believe into something they 
didn't say
or believe.

I know very well that birds do suffer. I did not say they didn't. I 
said that
they DID NOT SUFFER AS MUCH AS AN ABORTED FETUS.

Is that clear? Is that a hard concept to understand? I don't think it 
is.

Situation ONE: A fetus has its head popped off and sucked up a tube.

Situation TWO: A bird is force fed.

Which do think is MORE painful? Head popping off human fetus, or a bird
getting a tube down its throat.

If you are confused as to which would be more painful, TRY BOTH and let 
us
know.

"And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly 
subjected to
*their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over 
again."

Actually, they are only forced fed for the last 15-18 days of their 
life, the
rest the time they roam freely on open ranges. Chickens, pigs, cattle, 
fish,
and other creatures suffer for an even longer period of time and under 
greater
cruel circumstances. These animals are sold everywhere in Moscow and 
around the
world, even at the Co-Op.

Saundra, you know, as well as I that you are not concerned about a duck 
who
dies from liver illness three days prior to being slaughtered anyway. 
You care
about making more trouble for ANYONE who is remotely connected to Doug 
Wilson.
It is time for you go find another hobby and stop dragging and 
manipulating
young college students with good intentions into your hidden agendas 
with
sinister intentions.

Best,

_DJA

Saundra Lund <sslund at adelphia.net> wrote: Visionaries:

I swore I wasn't going to get sucked into any more ridiculous 
discussions
with Donovan's disingenuous posts, and I'm not.

I will, however, say I'm disappointed in -- but not surprised by --
Donovan's selective quoting. The very next sentence in the Wikipedia
article Donovan selectively quoted is:
"The committee did not observe any signs that animals appreciated being
force fed, and observed that ducks attempted to move away when their 
feeder
entered the room."

I'll state the obvious that apparently escapes Donovan: one doesn't 
need to
look at blood hormones to know that the ducks & geese used in foie gras
production suffer. The *simple* physiological evidence is clear: they
struggle to get away, they vomit, they die in the forced feeding 
process.
This is something simple observation documents. The heart and 
respiration
rates show changes that indicate physiological stress/pain.

And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly 
subjected to
*their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over 
again.

Given the extensive education Donovan claims, it is shocking to me that 
he's
trying to deny something so obvious as the suffering inherent in the
"production" of foie gras. I can certainly understand that some people 
just
don't know what's involved in foie gras production, but it is beyond me 
what
Donovan hopes to accomplish by minimizing and denying the very real and
repeated suffering clearly experienced by these sentient beings.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to 
do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra 
Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 
forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:21 PM
To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore
Gras"Killing Babies!

Saundra,

You huffed:

"That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense is:
cite your sources, Donovan."

In response to my statement:

"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive evidence
that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress than 
that
of a duck being forced fed."

I have done my research to bad you cannot conduct some yourself,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras
In regards to forced feeding:

"The EU (European Union) committee carried out several tests designed to
detect pain or distress by looking at blood hormones and all of them 
were
inconclusive or without any measurable difference to similarly raised
animals."

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
In regards to pain felt by a fetus:

"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain
pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain
perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical
systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and 
modulation are
intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have 
been
well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are 
reflected in
hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but 
greater
than those observed in adult subjects."

Fetuses feel more pain when their heads pop off during an abortion 
procedure
than a goose or duck during the time that the animal is being fed. That 
is
scientifically documented.

Best,

_DJA

Saundra Lund wrote:

Donovan Arnold wrote:
"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive
evidence
that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress
than that
of a duck being forced fed."

That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense
is:
cite your sources, Donovan.

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
nothing.
- Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra
Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020
forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
eta>

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
________________________________________________________________________
Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and 
industry-leading spam and email virus protection.