[Vision2020] Thanks Nil, Biking Is So Efficient!

Sun Aug 27 11:47:57 PDT 2006

I won't get into the details of this debate since I've said enough this morning already BUT some of Nils' concerns about walking to the downtown area apply with regard to biking there, as well. The fact is that biking from our part of town (near Tidyman's) to the downtown area is neither safe nor easy. I admit that it is much easier and much safer than it used to be and that it is likely to be just fine at some point in the future. So I'm not being critical and I'm very mindful of how much folks in town have done to make this less of a problem than it was. 

Still, for biking downtown from my home I have a few choices: (a) I can bike along Rt. 8, (b) I can bike along the new trail, and (c) I can bike along the back streets of Moscow. Neither option (a) nor option (c) are currently safe. Option (b) has two problems. First, the trail is -- in many places -- gravel and is difficult to ride on a bike. Second, the trail ends on Rt. 95 and there is a BIG problem getting from that location to downtown.

--
Joe Campbell

---- Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote: 

=============
Nils et. al.

I am puzzled why you are discussing walking to the Moscow Food CO-OP when
biking is much more efficient and quick?  Do you dislike biking and prefer
walking?

Indeed, the issue is time and convenience with so many people, accustomed to
structuring their lives for the speed and efficiency of automobiles.

Consider that all the calories burned for the activities of the driver,
including walking into, shopping, and out of the store with groceries, which
might involve walking a distance if parking next to the store entrance is
not available, must be figured into the fossil fuel efficiency of driving
compared to the meat eaters use of fossil fuel heavy calories to walk or
bike.  Driving to the store still has a significant fossil fuel cost from
the calories burned by the meat eater.  Some of the activities would involve
a nearly identical calorie cost, like entering the store and shopping.  In
the case of the Moscow Food CO-OP, assuming there is bike rack space
available at the store front, when the parking lot is full, a driver would
have to walk much further than a cyclist to get into and out of the
store, given they would have to hunt for distant parking spot.

Also, how much meat is eaten of what kind for our meat eating example?  The
web site focuses on heavy beef eaters, using some sort of averaged US diet,
but many now eat a lot of chicken, fish or pork, which would have a
different fossil fuel cost than beef, though I can't say for sure what the
fossil fuel impact for these meats involves.  And many meat eaters do not
get the majority of their calories from meat.  And of course local meats of
various kinds, wild game, even beef that is range fed on grass, or chickens
from a local farm, do not have the same fossil fuel costs as grain fed
"industrial" beef.

What percentage of the calories in your diet is from meat of what kind
sourced from where?  You might find that walking to the CO-OP does not have
the fossil fuel penalty in those calories you are burning as much as that
article implies?

This is from the web site information you listed:

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html

The same is not true of bicycling vs. driving, because bicycling is more
than twice as efficient as walking (calories consumed per distance traveled)
-- bicycling uses less fossil energy than driving even if the cyclist were
eating nothing but beef. 5
--------------

Thanks for reinforcing the argument for biking to the Moscow Food CO-OP,
even for voracious meat eaters!

There are other nutritional facts to consider:

The web site's argument about meat calorie fossil fuel costs vs. driving
fossil fuel costs, seems to ignore the fact that meat is not the primary
energy source for many meat eating diets: carbohydrates are.  Did the
analysis in question figure for the fact that both for meat eaters and
vegetarians, non-meat carbohydrate sources are likely to be the primary
energy source for walking or biking?  This is basic nutrition: carbohydrates
and sugars are burned more readily for energy by the body than protein and
fat.  The percentage of calories in the diet from meat would need to be
considered, and someone eating meat daily but not getting the majority of
their calories from meat, again depending on what kind of meat sourced from
where, might not have a dramatic difference in the fossil fuel costs per
calorie compared to a vegetarian, depending on many complex variables.

Here is some documentation on the efficiency of biking, from the same web
site you offered given again above:
 *How Much More Efficient is
Cycling than Walking?*

*

Calories burned in 10 minutes of activity

123-lb. Woman

170-lb. Man

Cycling, 9.5mph

56

74

Walking, 3.5mph

45

59
*

(1) Cyclists cover 2.7 times as much distance in the same period of time as
walkers. (9.5 mph / 3.5 mph)6

(2) 45 walking calories x 2.7 = 121.5 walking calories to cover same
distance.6

(3) 121.5 calories vs. 56 calories: (121.5-56)/56 = 117%

*So cycling is 117% more efficient than walking.* That's because cyclists
travel nearly three times faster than walkers, but use only about 25% more
calories to do so.

Running the numbers for men's calories yields a similar result.

--------

Ted Moffett

On 8/24/06, Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu> wrote:
>
>  Ted asks:
>
> Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south
> side of Hwy. 8?
>
>
> That's a good question.
> I live out by Tidymans, Joe lives a block closer to downtown.
>
> This link explains why I don't walk downtown, since I own a small car and
> eat meat ( http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html )
>
> In fact, meat production is so wasteful that walking actually uses more
> fossil energy than driving, if the calories burned from walking come from a
> typical American diet:
>
>     "It is actually quite astounding how much energy is wasted by the
> standard American diet-style. Even driving many gas-guzzling luxury cars can
> conserve energy over walking -- that is, when the calories you burn walking
> come from the standard American diet! (62)"
>
>
> But, taking MeganPru's suggestion, if I shift my walking power to carrots
> then I need to give you a more serious answer
>
> There are two routes I have explored, see map
> http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/22870 (If you don't know wayfaring,com,
> you should)
>
> Both routes are over a mile.
>
> When we were in Scotland, my wife and I didn't have a car and we took a
> weekly walk to Safeway. It was about a mile. Hauling stuff back by hand is a
> drag. (I did lose weight, however).
>
> I think an even bigger issue is a sense of not having time. Scotland had a
> different pace. The campus where I worked stopped at 10AM for tea. Really.
> The switchboard operators would not put through any long distance calls.
> Nada.
>
> Also, we walked and talked. It was a social thing. And being tourists, we
> had lots to look at and talk about.
>
> So, I'm sensing that the problem for me is deeply structural. Joe and I
> ride the bus, and its social, and I've structured some of my life around it.
>  I could get off the bus near the COOP, buy stuff and walk home. And then
> cook my carrots for dinner. It would work better if I ate at the COOP.... It
> ripples out and out.
>
> So, the question is not why is it hard to walk to the COOP, but how are
> you going to re-structure your life? And if I change mine, will you change
> your expectations of me, or will your expectations for my dress, timeliness,
> level of energy for other activities, etc, still be based on your car
> culture?
>
> If Donovan's dream world of $10 gas happens, then you and I would both be
> re-structuring our worlds and it would be easier for me to not be out of
> sync with the world's expectations for me
>
>
>
> On 8/24/06 10:30 AM, "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com > wrote:
>
>  All-
>
> The Moscow Food CO-OP's "twenty human powered shopping trips of five
> dollars or more for a five dollar discount" card applies to all human
> powered transportation, walking, biking, running, skateboarding, blades,
> wheel chairs (don't forget the wheel chair racers at Bloomsday beat the
> fastest runners), ...
>
> Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south
> side of Hwy. 8?
>
> Ted Moffett
>
>
> On 8/24/06, *Joe Campbell* < joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> I think the most important thing that we can do as a community is increase
> and encourage alternative forms of transportation. I don't have any answers
> but I do have some more detailed questions.
>
> I've always been a big walker but in my present location I walk far less
> than I ever did. If you live on the south side of Rt. 8, as I do, it is
> difficult to take advantage of the Co-ops wonderful offer. What can we do to
> increase and encourage more walking and bike riding in town, especially from
> the south and east to the downtown area?
>
> Similarly, I take the bus to work -- from Moscow to WSU -- pretty often.
> But I rarely ride the bus in town. There are two bus stops near my house and
> I know where they are but I still don't make use of that option. And I doubt
> that I'm atypical in this regard. How can we inform people about the Moscow
> bus schedule and encourage folks to use that form of transportation?
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu> wrote:
>
> =============
> I'm not too surprised that there was not an outpouring of personal actions
>
> to my previous question -- I'm about immobilized by the challenge as well.
>
> Carbon neutral is an interesting concept, but knowing if something is
> carbon
> neutral is hard, and, given that most things include a transportation
> element, its going to be hard to be neutral.
>
> Megan's veggie idea, as subsequently modified by other suggestions is one
> that resonates for me -- eat lower on the carbon input chain, which means
> eat local. That's something I can work on.
>
> SO now,  I want to move the discussion out a level, what are WE, as
> Moscow,
> gonna do?
>
> I got a piece of good news last night, PCEI has converted a vehicle to
> bio-diesel and they are talking about how to work with other fleets in
> town
> to convert them, and have a local bio-diesel supply. I know a couple other
> bio-diesel drivers around already and having a supply closer than Lewiston
>
> would be welcome news to them.
>
> The COOP gives a discount for getting there by foot. One of the businesses
>
> in Alturas Park (Anatech maybe?) gives employees a financial incentive per
> mile that they travel to work by foot power. WSU & UI run a bus between
> the
> campuses and its free to students and employees (but UI almost cut the
> service this summer -- sad statement on their green commitment)
>
> What else can we, in whatever collective groups, begin doing?
>
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