[Vision2020] Thanks Nil, Biking Is So Efficient!

[Ted Moffett]

Joe et. al.

I agree with your concerns.  Hwy 8 currently has stretches from Styner to
Hwy. 95 that are a bit "sporty" for someone biking.  I do ride this stretch
occasionally, ready to jump off the road if things get dicey.

And the Latah Trail is not done, the last I saw, all the way to Hwy 95, as
you indicated, still having a short section of gravel.

I don't find the back streets of Moscow to be that much of a problem for
biking.  It is more dangerous, in my opinion, on the more heavily trafficked
streets, even though some of these have bike lanes.  For one thing, the
vehicle speeds are much faster in some cases than on the back streets,
and the bike lanes don't stop a driver from swerving into them, or turning
into the lane to enter or leave a business, not noticing a coming cyclist.
With a heavy density of traffic, it is also harder to ride defensively.  On
the back streets I can often deliberately avoid oncoming vehicles, but when
in a bike lane, lets say by Tri-State on the north side, a 35 MPH zone with
high traffic density, you have to cross your fingers that a motorist from
behind won't make an unfortunate move, unless it's the middle of the night
with few vehicles.

Ted Moffett

On 8/27/06, Joe Campbell <joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> I won't get into the details of this debate since I've said enough this
> morning already BUT some of Nils' concerns about walking to the downtown
> area apply with regard to biking there, as well. The fact is that biking
> from our part of town (near Tidyman's) to the downtown area is neither safe
> nor easy. I admit that it is much easier and much safer than it used to be
> and that it is likely to be just fine at some point in the future. So I'm
> not being critical and I'm very mindful of how much folks in town have done
> to make this less of a problem than it was.
>
> Still, for biking downtown from my home I have a few choices: (a) I can
> bike along Rt. 8, (b) I can bike along the new trail, and (c) I can bike
> along the back streets of Moscow. Neither option (a) nor option (c) are
> currently safe. Option (b) has two problems. First, the trail is -- in many
> places -- gravel and is difficult to ride on a bike. Second, the trail ends
> on Rt. 95 and there is a BIG problem getting from that location to downtown.
>
> --
> Joe Campbell
>
> ---- Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =============
> Nils et. al.
>
> I am puzzled why you are discussing walking to the Moscow Food CO-OP when
> biking is much more efficient and quick?  Do you dislike biking and prefer
> walking?
>
> Indeed, the issue is time and convenience with so many people, accustomed
> to
> structuring their lives for the speed and efficiency of automobiles.
>
> Consider that all the calories burned for the activities of the driver,
> including walking into, shopping, and out of the store with groceries,
> which
> might involve walking a distance if parking next to the store entrance is
> not available, must be figured into the fossil fuel efficiency of driving
> compared to the meat eaters use of fossil fuel heavy calories to walk or
> bike.  Driving to the store still has a significant fossil fuel cost from
> the calories burned by the meat eater.  Some of the activities would
> involve
> a nearly identical calorie cost, like entering the store and shopping.  In
> the case of the Moscow Food CO-OP, assuming there is bike rack space
> available at the store front, when the parking lot is full, a driver would
> have to walk much further than a cyclist to get into and out of the
> store, given they would have to hunt for distant parking spot.
>
> Also, how much meat is eaten of what kind for our meat eating
> example?  The
> web site focuses on heavy beef eaters, using some sort of averaged US
> diet,
> but many now eat a lot of chicken, fish or pork, which would have a
> different fossil fuel cost than beef, though I can't say for sure what the
> fossil fuel impact for these meats involves.  And many meat eaters do not
> get the majority of their calories from meat.  And of course local meats
> of
> various kinds, wild game, even beef that is range fed on grass, or
> chickens
> from a local farm, do not have the same fossil fuel costs as grain fed
> "industrial" beef.
>
> What percentage of the calories in your diet is from meat of what kind
> sourced from where?  You might find that walking to the CO-OP does not
> have
> the fossil fuel penalty in those calories you are burning as much as that
> article implies?
>
> This is from the web site information you listed:
>
> http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html
>
> The same is not true of bicycling vs. driving, because bicycling is more
> than twice as efficient as walking (calories consumed per distance
> traveled)
> -- bicycling uses less fossil energy than driving even if the cyclist were
> eating nothing but beef. 5
> --------------
>
> Thanks for reinforcing the argument for biking to the Moscow Food CO-OP,
> even for voracious meat eaters!
>
> There are other nutritional facts to consider:
>
> The web site's argument about meat calorie fossil fuel costs vs. driving
> fossil fuel costs, seems to ignore the fact that meat is not the primary
> energy source for many meat eating diets: carbohydrates are.  Did the
> analysis in question figure for the fact that both for meat eaters and
> vegetarians, non-meat carbohydrate sources are likely to be the primary
> energy source for walking or biking?  This is basic nutrition:
> carbohydrates
> and sugars are burned more readily for energy by the body than protein and
> fat.  The percentage of calories in the diet from meat would need to be
> considered, and someone eating meat daily but not getting the majority of
> their calories from meat, again depending on what kind of meat sourced
> from
> where, might not have a dramatic difference in the fossil fuel costs per
> calorie compared to a vegetarian, depending on many complex variables.
>
> Here is some documentation on the efficiency of biking, from the same web
> site you offered given again above:
> *How Much More Efficient is
> Cycling than Walking?*
>
> *
>
> Calories burned in 10 minutes of activity
>
> 123-lb. Woman
>
> 170-lb. Man
>
> Cycling, 9.5mph
>
> 56
>
> 74
>
> Walking, 3.5mph
>
> 45
>
> 59
> *
>
> (1) Cyclists cover 2.7 times as much distance in the same period of time
> as
> walkers. (9.5 mph / 3.5 mph)6
>
> (2) 45 walking calories x 2.7 = 121.5 walking calories to cover same
> distance.6
>
> (3) 121.5 calories vs. 56 calories: (121.5-56)/56 = 117%
>
> *So cycling is 117% more efficient than walking.* That's because cyclists
> travel nearly three times faster than walkers, but use only about 25% more
> calories to do so.
>
> Running the numbers for men's calories yields a similar result.
>
> --------
>
> Ted Moffett
>
>
>
>
> On 8/24/06, Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >  Ted asks:
> >
> > Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south
> > side of Hwy. 8?
> >
> >
> > That's a good question.
> > I live out by Tidymans, Joe lives a block closer to downtown.
> >
> > This link explains why I don't walk downtown, since I own a small car
> and
> > eat meat ( http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html )
> >
> > In fact, meat production is so wasteful that walking actually uses more
> > fossil energy than driving, if the calories burned from walking come
> from a
> > typical American diet:
> >
> >     "It is actually quite astounding how much energy is wasted by the
> > standard American diet-style. Even driving many gas-guzzling luxury cars
> can
> > conserve energy over walking -- that is, when the calories you burn
> walking
> > come from the standard American diet! (62)"
> >
> >
> > But, taking MeganPru's suggestion, if I shift my walking power to
> carrots
> > then I need to give you a more serious answer
> >
> > There are two routes I have explored, see map
> > http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/22870 (If you don't know
> wayfaring,com,
> > you should)
> >
> > Both routes are over a mile.
> >
> > When we were in Scotland, my wife and I didn't have a car and we took a
> > weekly walk to Safeway. It was about a mile. Hauling stuff back by hand
> is a
> > drag. (I did lose weight, however).
> >
> > I think an even bigger issue is a sense of not having time. Scotland had
> a
> > different pace. The campus where I worked stopped at 10AM for tea.
> Really.
> > The switchboard operators would not put through any long distance calls.
> > Nada.
> >
> > Also, we walked and talked. It was a social thing. And being tourists,
> we
> > had lots to look at and talk about.
> >
> > So, I'm sensing that the problem for me is deeply structural. Joe and I
> > ride the bus, and its social, and I've structured some of my life around
> it.
> >  I could get off the bus near the COOP, buy stuff and walk home. And
> then
> > cook my carrots for dinner. It would work better if I ate at the
> COOP.... It
> > ripples out and out.
> >
> > So, the question is not why is it hard to walk to the COOP, but how are
> > you going to re-structure your life? And if I change mine, will you
> change
> > your expectations of me, or will your expectations for my dress,
> timeliness,
> > level of energy for other activities, etc, still be based on your car
> > culture?
> >
> > If Donovan's dream world of $10 gas happens, then you and I would both
> be
> > re-structuring our worlds and it would be easier for me to not be out of
> > sync with the world's expectations for me
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/24/06 10:30 AM, "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> >  All-
> >
> > The Moscow Food CO-OP's "twenty human powered shopping trips of five
> > dollars or more for a five dollar discount" card applies to all human
> > powered transportation, walking, biking, running, skateboarding, blades,
> > wheel chairs (don't forget the wheel chair racers at Bloomsday beat the
> > fastest runners), ...
> >
> > Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south
> > side of Hwy. 8?
> >
> > Ted Moffett
> >
> >
> > On 8/24/06, *Joe Campbell* < joekc at adelphia.net> wrote:
> >
> > I think the most important thing that we can do as a community is
> increase
> > and encourage alternative forms of transportation. I don't have any
> answers
> > but I do have some more detailed questions.
> >
> > I've always been a big walker but in my present location I walk far less
> > than I ever did. If you live on the south side of Rt. 8, as I do, it is
> > difficult to take advantage of the Co-ops wonderful offer. What can we
> do to
> > increase and encourage more walking and bike riding in town, especially
> from
> > the south and east to the downtown area?
> >
> > Similarly, I take the bus to work -- from Moscow to WSU -- pretty often.
> > But I rarely ride the bus in town. There are two bus stops near my house
> and
> > I know where they are but I still don't make use of that option. And I
> doubt
> > that I'm atypical in this regard. How can we inform people about the
> Moscow
> > bus schedule and encourage folks to use that form of transportation?
> >
> > --
> > Joe Campbell
> >
> > ---- Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > =============
> > I'm not too surprised that there was not an outpouring of personal
> actions
> >
> > to my previous question -- I'm about immobilized by the challenge as
> well.
> >
> > Carbon neutral is an interesting concept, but knowing if something is
> > carbon
> > neutral is hard, and, given that most things include a transportation
> > element, its going to be hard to be neutral.
> >
> > Megan's veggie idea, as subsequently modified by other suggestions is
> one
> > that resonates for me -- eat lower on the carbon input chain, which
> means
> > eat local. That's something I can work on.
> >
> > SO now,  I want to move the discussion out a level, what are WE, as
> > Moscow,
> > gonna do?
> >
> > I got a piece of good news last night, PCEI has converted a vehicle to
> > bio-diesel and they are talking about how to work with other fleets in
> > town
> > to convert them, and have a local bio-diesel supply. I know a couple
> other
> > bio-diesel drivers around already and having a supply closer than
> Lewiston
> >
> > would be welcome news to them.
> >
> > The COOP gives a discount for getting there by foot. One of the
> businesses
> >
> > in Alturas Park (Anatech maybe?) gives employees a financial incentive
> per
> > mile that they travel to work by foot power. WSU & UI run a bus between
> > the
> > campuses and its free to students and employees (but UI almost cut the
> > service this summer -- sad statement on their green commitment)
> >
> > What else can we, in whatever collective groups, begin doing?
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >                http://www.fsr.net
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> >               http://www.fsr.net   <http://www.fsr.net><
> http://www.fsr.net/>
> >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20060827/17c555f5/attachment-0001.htm