[Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore Gras"Killing Babies!

[Paul Rumelhart]

One key concept in all this for me is not whether there are pain 
receptors, but whether or not the creature is aware of it's situation.  
Killing animals inhumanely is bad, because the animals we are killing 
are aware enough of the killing to cause them distress.  We don't seem 
to mind killing trees or cabbages, because as far as we know they have 
no awareness of their plight.  We kill microorganisms by the millions 
when we brush our teeth, but that doesn't seem to bother us.

Of course, awareness can't be the only criteria, because then it would 
be ok to kill someone in their sleep or to immediately take the life of 
people who fall into comas.  So you have to call it something like 
"being capable of being aware of" or something.  And that leads to the 
sticky question of potential.  A fetus is potentially a being that will 
become aware of itself in the future.  But how far do you take that 
concept?  Is it wrong to ejaculate without intercourse because you are 
killing millions of potential humans?  Or even to decide to abstain from 
sex, ultimately killing the unique individual that might have resulted 
from it?

You also have the added complication of the fetus being part of the 
mother until birth.  No one disputes the mother's right to have a kidney 
removed.  So when does the fetus become it's own self that is separate 
from the mother?

I think there are too many variables to try to come up with one simple 
rule that will work for everyone.  I certainly don't have any answers 
myself.  I will say that it is inhumane to force-feed captive geese for 
their over-fattened livers.  By the same logic, it's inhumane to 
restrict the movement of calves to keep their meat tender before killing 
them, so no veal for me either. 

At what point it's inhumane to abort a fetus, I have no idea.  However, 
I don't see why so many people want to make the choice once for everybody.

Paul

Saundra Lund wrote:

>Visionaries:
>
>I swore I wasn't going to get sucked into any more ridiculous discussions
>with Donovan's disingenuous posts, and I'm not.
>
>I will, however, say I'm disappointed in -- but not surprised by --
>Donovan's selective quoting.  The very next sentence in the Wikipedia
>article Donovan selectively quoted is:
>"The committee did not observe any signs that animals appreciated being
>force fed, and observed that ducks attempted to move away when their feeder
>entered the room."
>
>I'll state the obvious that apparently escapes Donovan:  one doesn't need to
>look at blood hormones to know that the ducks & geese used in foie gras
>production suffer.  The *simple* physiological evidence is clear:  they
>struggle to get away, they vomit, they die in the forced feeding process.
>This is something simple observation documents.  The heart and respiration
>rates show changes that indicate physiological stress/pain.
>
>And, these individual sentient beings are absolutely needlessly subjected to
>*their* pain and suffering and terror over and over and over and over again.
>
>Given the extensive education Donovan claims, it is shocking to me that he's
>trying to deny something so obvious as the suffering inherent in the
>"production" of foie gras.  I can certainly understand that some people just
>don't know what's involved in foie gras production, but it is beyond me what
>Donovan hopes to accomplish by minimizing and denying the very real and
>repeated suffering clearly experienced by these sentient beings.
>
>
>Saundra Lund
>Moscow, ID
>
>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
>nothing.
>- Edmund Burke
>
>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra Lund.
>Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
>without the express written permission of the author.*****
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:21 PM
>To: Saundra Lund; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Is there a correlation between "Fore
>Gras"Killing Babies!
>
>Saundra,
>
>
>You huffed:
>
>
>"That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense is:
>cite your sources, Donovan."
>
>
>In response to my statement:
>
>
>"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive evidence
>that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress than that
>of a duck being forced fed."
>
>I have done my research to bad you cannot conduct some yourself,
>
>
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras
> In regards to forced feeding:
>
>
>"The EU (European Union) committee carried out several tests designed to
>detect pain or distress by looking at blood hormones and all of them were
>inconclusive or without any measurable difference to similarly raised
>animals."
> 
>http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
> In regards to pain felt by a fetus:
>
>
>"Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain
>pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain
>perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical
>systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and modulation are
>intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been
>well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in
>hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater
>than those observed in adult subjects."
>
>
>Fetuses feel more pain when their heads pop off during an abortion procedure
>than a goose or duck during the time that the animal is being fed. That is
>scientifically documented.
> 
>
>Best,
>
>
>_DJA
>
>
>
>Saundra Lund <sslund at adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>	Donovan Arnold wrote:
>	"In fact, there is more physiological scientifically conclusive
>evidence
>	that a fetus experiencing an abortion feels more pain and stress
>than that
>	of a duck being forced fed."
>	
>	That is flatly untrue. The only rational response to such nonsense
>is:
>	cite your sources, Donovan.
>	
>	
>	Saundra Lund
>	Moscow, ID
>	
>	The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
>to do
>	nothing.
>	- Edmund Burke
>	
>	***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2006, Saundra
>Lund.
>	Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020
>forum
>	without the express written permission of the author.***** 
>	
>	
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