[Vision2020] Thanks Nil, Biking Is So Efficient!

Sun Aug 27 08:24:30 PDT 2006

Ted,

 I think the big cost saving in walking, biking, vs.  Driving is not in fuel, but health costs. The costs in taking care of  an unfit adult is much higher than an adult that is healthy and fit,  especially later in their life.  There are other variables  involved as well.  Looking at just two variables when determining  the costs (fuel or otherwise) of walking and riding a bike vs driving I  think makes the article about driving instead of riding a bike invalid.  

  Best, 

  _DJA

Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:  Nils et. al.

  I  am puzzled why you are discussing walking to the Moscow Food CO-OP when  biking is much more efficient and quick?  Do you dislike biking  and prefer walking?

  Indeed, the issue is  time and convenience with so many people, accustomed to structuring  their lives for the speed and efficiency of automobiles.

  Consider  that all the calories burned for the activities  of the driver, including walking into, shopping, and out  of the store with groceries, which might involve walking a distance if  parking next to the store entrance is not available, must be figured  into the fossil fuel efficiency of driving compared to the  meat eaters use of fossil fuel heavy calories to walk or bike.   Driving to the store still has a significant fossil fuel cost from the  calories burned by the meat eater.  Some of the activities  would involve a nearly identical calorie cost, like entering the  store and shopping.  In the case of the Moscow Food CO-OP,  assuming there is bike rack space available at the store front, when  the parking lot is full, a driver would have to walk much  further than a cyclist to get into and out of the store, given  they would have to hunt for distant parking spot.  

  Also,  how much meat is eaten of what kind for our meat eating example?   The web site focuses on heavy beef eaters, using some sort of averaged  US diet, but many now eat a lot of chicken, fish or pork, which would  have a different fossil fuel cost than beef, though I can't say for  sure what the fossil fuel impact for these meats involves.  And  many meat eaters do not get the majority of their calories from  meat.  And of course local meats of various kinds, wild game, even  beef that is range fed on grass, or chickens from a local farm, do not  have the same fossil fuel costs as grain fed "industrial" beef. 

  What  percentage of the calories in your diet is from meat of what kind  sourced from where?  You might find that walking to the CO-OP does  not have the fossil fuel penalty in those calories you are burning as  much as that article implies? 

  This is from the web site information you listed:

  http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html

  The  same is not true of bicycling vs. driving, because bicycling is more  than twice as efficient as walking (calories consumed per distance  traveled) -- bicycling uses less fossil energy than driving even if the  cyclist were eating nothing but beef. 5
  --------------

  Thanks for reinforcing the argument for biking to the Moscow Food CO-OP, even for voracious meat eaters!

  There are other nutritional facts to consider:

  The  web site's argument about meat calorie fossil fuel costs vs. driving  fossil fuel costs, seems to ignore the fact that meat is not the  primary energy source for many meat eating diets: carbohydrates  are.  Did the analysis in question figure for the fact that both  for meat eaters and vegetarians, non-meat carbohydrate sources are  likely to be the primary energy source for walking or biking?   This is basic nutrition: carbohydrates and sugars are burned more  readily for energy by the body than protein and fat.  The  percentage of calories in the diet from meat would need to be  considered, and someone eating meat daily but not getting the majority  of their calories from meat, again depending on what kind of meat  sourced from where, might not have a dramatic difference in  the fossil fuel costs per calorie compared to a vegetarian, depending  on many complex variables. 

  Here is some documentation on the efficiency of biking, from the same web site you offered given again above: 
    How Much More Efficient is
Cycling than Walking?              Calories burned in 10 minutes of activity
    123-lb. Woman
    170-lb. Man
      Cycling, 9.5mph
    56
    74
      Walking, 3.5mph
    45
    59

  (1) Cyclists cover 2.7 times as much distance in the same period of time as walkers. (9.5 mph / 3.5 mph)6
  (2) 45 walking calories x 2.7 = 121.5 walking calories to cover same distance.6
  (3) 121.5 calories vs. 56 calories: (121.5-56)/56 = 117%
  So cycling is 117% more efficient than walking. That's because cyclists travel nearly three times faster than walkers, but use only about 25% more calories to do so.  Running the numbers for men's calories yields a similar result.
  --------
  Ted Moffett

  On 8/24/06, Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu  > wrote:       Ted asks:

    Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south side of Hwy. 8? 

That's a good question. 
I live out by Tidymans, Joe lives a block closer to downtown.

This link explains why I don't walk downtown, since I own a small car and eat meat (   http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html )

  In  fact, meat production is so wasteful that walking actually uses more  fossil energy than driving, if the calories burned from walking come  from a typical American diet: 

    "It is  actually quite astounding how much energy is wasted by the standard  American diet-style. Even driving many gas-guzzling luxury cars can  conserve energy over walking -- that is, when the calories you burn  walking come from the standard American diet! (62)" 

But, taking MeganPru's suggestion, if I shift my walking power to carrots then I need to give you a more serious answer   

There are two routes I have explored, see map  http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/22870   (If you don't know wayfaring,com, you should)

Both routes are over a mile. 

When  we were in Scotland, my wife and I didn't have a car and we took a  weekly walk to Safeway. It was about a mile. Hauling stuff back by hand  is a drag. (I did lose weight, however). 

I think an even  bigger issue is a sense of not having time. Scotland had a different  pace. The campus where I worked stopped at 10AM for tea. Really. The  switchboard operators would not put through any long distance calls.  Nada. 

Also, we walked and talked. It was a social thing. And being tourists, we had lots to look at and talk about.

So,  I'm sensing that the problem for me is deeply structural. Joe and I  ride the bus, and its social, and I've structured some of my life  around it.  I could get off the bus near the COOP, buy stuff and  walk home. And then cook my carrots for dinner. It would work better if  I ate at the COOP.... It ripples out and out. 

So, the question  is not why is it hard to walk to the COOP, but how are you going to  re-structure your life? And if I change mine, will you change your  expectations of me, or will your expectations for my dress, timeliness,  level of energy for other activities, etc, still be based on your car  culture? 

If Donovan's dream world of $10 gas happens, then you  and I would both be re-structuring our worlds and it would be easier  for me to not be out of sync with the world's expectations for me

On 8/24/06 10:30 AM, "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com > wrote:

  All-

The  Moscow Food CO-OP's "twenty human powered shopping trips of five  dollars or more for a five dollar discount" card applies to all human  powered transportation, walking, biking, running, skateboarding,  blades, wheel chairs (don't forget the wheel chair racers at Bloomsday  beat the fastest runners), ... 

Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south side of Hwy. 8?

Ted Moffett

On 8/24/06, Joe Campbell <   joekc at adelphia.net> wrote: 

  I  think the most important thing that we can do as a community is  increase and encourage alternative forms of transportation. I don't  have any answers but I do have some more detailed questions. 

I've  always been a big walker but in my present location I walk far less  than I ever did. If you live on the south side of Rt. 8, as I do, it is  difficult to take advantage of the Co-ops wonderful offer. What can we  do to increase and encourage more walking and bike riding in town,  especially from the south and east to the downtown area? 

Similarly,  I take the bus to work -- from Moscow to WSU -- pretty often. But I  rarely ride the bus in town. There are two bus stops near my house and  I know where they are but I still don't make use of that option. And I  doubt that I'm atypical in this regard. How can we inform people about  the Moscow bus schedule and encourage folks to use that form of  transportation? 

--
Joe Campbell

---- Nils Peterson <nils_peterson at wsu.edu> wrote:

=============   
I'm not too surprised that there was not an outpouring of personal actions 
to my previous question -- I'm about immobilized by the challenge as well.

Carbon neutral is an interesting concept, but knowing if something is carbon   
neutral is hard, and, given that most things include a transportation 
element, its going to be hard to be neutral.

Megan's veggie idea, as subsequently modified by other suggestions is one
that resonates for me -- eat lower on the carbon input chain, which means   
eat local. That's something I can work on. 

SO now,  I want to move the discussion out a level, what are WE, as Moscow,
gonna do?

I got a piece of good news last night, PCEI has converted a vehicle to   
bio-diesel and they are talking about how to work with other fleets in town 
to convert them, and have a local bio-diesel supply. I know a couple other
bio-diesel drivers around already and having a supply closer than Lewiston   
would be welcome news to them.

The COOP gives a discount for getting there by foot. One of the businesses 
in Alturas Park (Anatech maybe?) gives employees a financial incentive per
mile that they travel to work by foot power. WSU & UI run a bus between the   
campuses and its free to students and employees (but UI almost cut the 
service this summer -- sad statement on their green commitment)

What else can we, in whatever collective groups, begin doing?

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