Ted,<br> <br> I think the big cost saving in walking, biking, vs. Driving is not in fuel, but health costs. The costs in taking care of an unfit adult is much higher than an adult that is healthy and fit, especially later in their life. There are other variables involved as well. Looking at just two variables when determining the costs (fuel or otherwise) of walking and riding a bike vs driving I think makes the article about driving instead of riding a bike invalid. <br> <br> Best, <br> <br> _DJA<br><br><b><i>Ted Moffett <starbliss@gmail.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div>Nils et. al.</div> <div> </div> <div>I am puzzled why you are discussing walking to the Moscow Food CO-OP when biking is much more efficient and quick? Do you dislike biking and prefer walking?</div> <div> </div> <div>Indeed, the issue is time and
convenience with so many people, accustomed to structuring their lives for the speed and efficiency of automobiles.</div> <div> </div> <div>Consider that all the calories burned for the activities of the driver, including walking into, shopping, and out of the store with groceries, which might involve walking a distance if parking next to the store entrance is not available, must be figured into the fossil fuel efficiency of driving compared to the meat eaters use of fossil fuel heavy calories to walk or bike. Driving to the store still has a significant fossil fuel cost from the calories burned by the meat eater. Some of the activities would involve a nearly identical calorie cost, like entering the store and shopping. In the case of the Moscow Food CO-OP, assuming there is bike rack space available at the store front, when the parking lot is full, a driver would have to walk much
further than a cyclist to get into and out of the store, given they would have to hunt for distant parking spot. </div> <div> </div> <div>Also, how much meat is eaten of what kind for our meat eating example? The web site focuses on heavy beef eaters, using some sort of averaged US diet, but many now eat a lot of chicken, fish or pork, which would have a different fossil fuel cost than beef, though I can't say for sure what the fossil fuel impact for these meats involves. And many meat eaters do not get the majority of their calories from meat. And of course local meats of various kinds, wild game, even beef that is range fed on grass, or chickens from a local farm, do not have the same fossil fuel costs as grain fed "industrial" beef. </div> <div> </div> <div>What percentage of the calories in your diet is from meat of what kind sourced from where? You might find that walking to the CO-OP does not have the
fossil fuel penalty in those calories you are burning as much as that article implies? </div> <div> </div> <div>This is from the web site information you listed:</div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html">http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html</a></div> <div><font size="5"></font> </div> <div><font size="5">T</font>he same is not true of bicycling vs. driving, because bicycling is more than twice as efficient as walking (calories consumed per distance traveled) -- bicycling uses less fossil energy than driving even if the cyclist were eating nothing but beef. <sup>5</sup></div> <div>--------------</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks for reinforcing the argument for biking to the Moscow Food CO-OP, even for voracious meat eaters!</div> <div> </div> <div>There are other nutritional facts to consider:</div> <div> </div> <div>The web site's argument about meat calorie fossil fuel costs vs.
driving fossil fuel costs, seems to ignore the fact that meat is not the primary energy source for many meat eating diets: carbohydrates are. Did the analysis in question figure for the fact that both for meat eaters and vegetarians, non-meat carbohydrate sources are likely to be the primary energy source for walking or biking? This is basic nutrition: carbohydrates and sugars are burned more readily for energy by the body than protein and fat. The percentage of calories in the diet from meat would need to be considered, and someone eating meat daily but not getting the majority of their calories from meat, again depending on what kind of meat sourced from where, might not have a dramatic difference in the fossil fuel costs per calorie compared to a vegetarian, depending on many complex variables. </div> <div> </div> <div>Here is some documentation on the efficiency of biking, from the same web site you offered given
again above: </div> <div> <h1 style="line-height: 125%;" align="center"><font color="#000066"><b>How Much More Efficient is<br>Cycling than Walking?</b></font></h1> <div align="center"><font color="#000066"><b> <center> <table border="1" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="400"> <tbody> <tr bgcolor="#ffff99"> <td width="156"> <div>Calories burned in 10 minutes of activity</div></td> <td> <div align="center"><b>123-lb. Woman</b></div></td> <td> <div align="center"><b>170-lb. Man</b></div></td></tr> <tr> <td width="156"> <div>Cycling, 9.5mph</div></td> <td> <div align="center">56</div></td> <td> <div align="center">74</div></td></tr> <tr> <td width="156"> <div>Walking, 3.5mph</div></td> <td> <div align="center">45</div></td> <td> <div align="center">59</div></td></tr></tbody></table></center></b></font> </div><div></div> <div>(1) Cyclists cover 2.7 times as much distance in the same period of time as walkers. (9.5 mph / 3.5
mph)<sup>6</sup></div> <div>(2) 45 walking calories x 2.7 = 121.5 walking calories to cover same distance.<sup>6</sup></div> <div>(3) 121.5 calories vs. 56 calories: (121.5-56)/56 = 117%</div> <blockquote><b>So cycling is 117% more efficient than walking.</b> That's because cyclists travel nearly three times faster than walkers, but use only about 25% more calories to do so.</blockquote> <div>Running the numbers for men's calories yields a similar result.</div> <div>--------</div> <div>Ted Moffett</div> <div></div><div></div></div> <div> </div> <div><br> </div> <div><span class="gmail_quote">On 8/24/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Nils Peterson</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nils_peterson@wsu.edu" target="_blank">nils_peterson@wsu.edu </a>> wrote:</span> <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div> <div><font
face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Ted asks:<br></span></font></div> <div><span> <blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south side of Hwy. 8? <br></span></font></blockquote></span></div> <div><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><br>That's a good question. <br>I live out by Tidymans, Joe lives a block closer to downtown.<br><br>This link explains why I don't walk downtown, since I own a small car and eat meat ( <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html" target="_blank">http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/beef.html</a> )<br><br></span></font> <blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><font color="#0000ff">In fact, meat production is so wasteful that walking actually uses more fossil energy
than driving, if the calories burned from walking come from a typical American diet: <br><br> "It is actually quite astounding how much energy is wasted by the standard American diet-style. Even driving many gas-guzzling luxury cars can conserve energy over walking -- that is, when the calories you burn walking come from the standard American diet! (62)" <br></font></span></font></blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;"><br>But, taking MeganPru's suggestion, if I shift my walking power to carrots then I need to give you a more serious answer <br><br>There are two routes I have explored, see map <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/22870" target="_blank">http://www.wayfaring.com/maps/show/22870</a> (If you don't know wayfaring,com, you should)<br><br>Both routes are over a mile. <br><br>When we were in Scotland, my wife and I didn't
have a car and we took a weekly walk to Safeway. It was about a mile. Hauling stuff back by hand is a drag. (I did lose weight, however). <br><br>I think an even bigger issue is a sense of not having time. Scotland had a different pace. The campus where I worked stopped at 10AM for tea. Really. The switchboard operators would not put through any long distance calls. Nada. <br><br>Also, we walked and talked. It was a social thing. And being tourists, we had lots to look at and talk about.<br><br>So, I'm sensing that the problem for me is deeply structural. Joe and I ride the bus, and its social, and I've structured some of my life around it. I could get off the bus near the COOP, buy stuff and walk home. And then cook my carrots for dinner. It would work better if I ate at the COOP.... It ripples out and out. <br><br>So, the question is not why is it hard to walk to the COOP, but how are you going to re-structure your life? And if I change mine, will you
change your expectations of me, or will your expectations for my dress, timeliness, level of energy for other activities, etc, still be based on your car culture? <br><br>If Donovan's dream world of $10 gas happens, then you and I would both be re-structuring our worlds and it would be easier for me to not be out of sync with the world's expectations for me</span></font></div> <div><span><br><br><br>On 8/24/06 10:30 AM, "Ted Moffett" <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target="_blank">starbliss@gmail.com </a>> wrote:<br><br> </span></div> <div> <blockquote></blockquote></div> <div><span><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;">All-<br> <br>The Moscow Food CO-OP's "twenty human powered shopping trips of five dollars or more for a five dollar discount" card applies to all human powered transportation, walking, biking, running, skateboarding, blades, wheel chairs
(don't forget the wheel chair racers at Bloomsday beat the fastest runners), ... <br> <br>Why is it hard to take advantage of the CO-OPs offer living on the south side of Hwy. 8?<br> <br>Ted Moffett<br><br> <br>On 8/24/06, <b>Joe Campbell</b> <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:joekc@adelphia.net" target="_blank"> joekc@adelphia.net</a>> wrote: <br></span></font></span></div> <div> <blockquote><font face="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size: 12px;"></span></font></blockquote></div> <div><span>I think the most important thing that we can do as a community is increase and encourage alternative forms of transportation. I don't have any answers but I do have some more detailed questions. <br><br>I've always been a big walker but in my present location I walk far less than I ever did. If you live on the south side of Rt. 8, as I do, it is difficult to take advantage of the Co-ops wonderful offer.
What can we do to increase and encourage more walking and bike riding in town, especially from the south and east to the downtown area? <br><br>Similarly, I take the bus to work -- from Moscow to WSU -- pretty often. But I rarely ride the bus in town. There are two bus stops near my house and I know where they are but I still don't make use of that option. And I doubt that I'm atypical in this regard. How can we inform people about the Moscow bus schedule and encourage folks to use that form of transportation? <br><br>--<br>Joe Campbell<br><br>---- Nils Peterson <<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:nils_peterson@wsu.edu" target="_blank">nils_peterson@wsu.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br>============= <br>I'm not too surprised that there was not an outpouring of personal actions <br>to my previous question -- I'm about immobilized by the challenge as well.<br><br>Carbon neutral is an interesting concept, but knowing if something is
carbon <br>neutral is hard, and, given that most things include a transportation <br>element, its going to be hard to be neutral.<br><br>Megan's veggie idea, as subsequently modified by other suggestions is one<br>that resonates for me -- eat lower on the carbon input chain, which means <br>eat local. That's something I can work on. <br><br>SO now, I want to move the discussion out a level, what are WE, as Moscow,<br>gonna do?<br><br>I got a piece of good news last night, PCEI has converted a vehicle to <br>bio-diesel and they are talking about how to work with other fleets in town <br>to convert them, and have a local bio-diesel supply. I know a couple other<br>bio-diesel drivers around already and having a supply closer than Lewiston <br>would be welcome news to them.<br><br>The COOP gives a discount for getting there by foot. One of the businesses <br>in Alturas Park (Anatech maybe?) gives employees a financial incentive per<br>mile that they travel to
work by foot power. WSU & UI run a bus between the <br>campuses and its free to students and employees (but UI almost cut the <br>service this summer -- sad statement on their green commitment)<br><br>What else can we, in whatever collective groups, begin doing?<br><br>======================================================= <br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"> http://www.fsr.net</a><br> <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================
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