[Vision2020] public school job training
J Ford
privatejf32 at hotmail.com
Thu Aug 10 09:53:22 PDT 2006
RUN FOR OFFICE, DJA. If you have all the answers but lack the platform
other than the V, RUN FOR OFFICE. Stop flapping yer gums and DO something
(ANYthing) constructive.
Your description of the teachers you had to deal with is appalling - too bad
it isnae true. Makes for a headlines and sets the alarmist off and running
- which was yer point, right?
Proof, mon, proof. You say you know these things to be true - produce the
proof. Go to a School Board meeting, stand up IN PUBLIC and make your
statements, ask your questions (respectfully), offer CONSTRUCTIVE solutions
- do anything that would help.
All you do here is try to hurt people and spread lies that simply are
pathetic.
To have attended 12 schools in your wee life time is sad...most people make
due with 3-4 then go onto college for a time (NOT a life time) after having
picked a major and sticking to it.
And quite frankly, you are a mass of confusion; at one point ye are
screaming about the cost of the teachers pay NOW, yet you want it to start
at about $12k higher? You scream the MSD is mis-spending its funds and yet
ye want more spent on programs that have nae form or structure, just yer
word that it would work? You continually speak out against the improvement
of the schools and yet you want more money spent for running them
year-round?
Now, too, you want the high schools to become part college and part
vocational schools? Who pays for that and how?
Based on what studies or examples have you seen a 5-19yr old school history
to work? Has any other credible system used that and had it work?
None of what you suggest is cheap, easy to implement, verifiable in results
or doable at this stage.
But, I am sure in all your wisdom - ye knew that.
J :]
>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>, thansen at moscow.com,
>the_ivies3 at yahoo.com, gweitz at moscow.com, ringoshirl at moscow.com,
>vision2020 at moscow.com, bduncan at pmt.org
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] public school job training
>Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:05:13 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Keely,
>
> I never said it would be easy to implement. In fact, I think it would be
>really tough work, work beyond the willingness or capability of many
>people in the MSD. You are right we would have to replace many of them
>with people that were more highly motivated and inventive then just
>throwing the taxpayer's dollars at their problems.
>
> Your email, as usual, had many factual errors in it. One important one
>was where you say that teachers starting salaries are set by the state.
>This is incorrect, they only set the lowest salary possible for a starting
>teachers, which is what MSD pays its teachers. If it was lower, you would
>be paying them lower, no doubt. There is NO law preventing the MSD Board
>and yourself from paying teachers more money, you just didn't want to, so
>don't go that route.
>
> But I do think it is feasible to change our school system that has been
>operating as though we are graduating students that will enter American
>Society in the year 1906.
>
> I am also aware you and the local school board cannot change much,
>because the Idaho State Legislature doesn't want to give you any power,
>quiet frankly, I can honestly see why in many regards since MSD has
>demonstrated a poor ability to use public dollars wisely. It needs to be
>done on a state level.
>
> I have been to no less than 12 public schools in my lifetime. I have
>found many obese and unhealthy PE and health teachers, math teachers that
>could not add, and coaches that were trying to teach government, history
>and geography. I had many teachers where putting a mirror under their nose
>was the only way to know if they were still alive, they never did diddly,
>never tried to motivate students, be creative, interact, they just sit
>there and say read the chapter and answer the question on the worksheet.
>
> I think teachers should be paid a good wage at start, say $32-36K
>depending on the field. Then pay more based on performance and experience.
>This way a good motivated teacher that is successful can make a good
>living, and the rotten ones that just sit around and do nothing cannot get
>paid well just because their ass has been in a chair longer, they can stay
> at $32K a year. This is the way the real world works.
>
> It also isn't solely about money. St. Mary's way outperforms MSD and it
>operates on a very tiny budget and against a hostile over regulatory city
>government. And St. Mary's kids are not just the gifted ones. Children can
>be successful without always throwing more money at the problems of
>educating them.
>
> Having school for 14 years, from 5 years old to 19 years old would
>afford two more years of education for students, and give them a
>vocational skill or two years of college to help them make a living when
>they graduate.
>
> In terms of greater funding, hospitals, truck driving companies,
>plumbing companies, HVAC companies, Computer companies, architecture
>firms, and many others are hurting for qualified and trained workers, why
>are our schools not matching these students with these jobs?
>
>
> _DJA
>
>keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote: I'm not on the school board any
>more, although I am still vice-chair of
>Region II for the Idaho School Boards Association. I'm fairly well
>acquainted, I think, with a few things regarding this issue. One is that
>Donovan's ideas, below, while I'm sure sincerely held, are not as easy to
>implement as he'd like us to think. The other thing I know is that arguing
>with Donovan is a fruitless proposition. Still, his ideas prompt me to
>comment, however briefly:
>
>Year-round school cannot be accomplished by superintendent or school board
>fiat. Parents, teachers, administrators, non-certificated staff and
>virtually everyone in the community would be affected, and to think that
>staging year-round schools is easy to decide and simple to implement is
>absurd -- no matter what the benefit, it's not like staging a prom, a
>community forum, or, as Donovan so indelicately put it in an earlier post,
>referring to the Facility Committee's work on last year's bond, a teenage
>pot-smoking circle. Perhaps there's benefit to having class throughout the
>year. However, there is no benefit, or justice, to assuming that that
>hasn't been decided on solely to tick off constituents -- most of whom
>would
>give new meaning to "ticked off" if the district proposed it.
>
>I believe that teachers generally earn too little. However, beginning
>salaries are mandated by the legislature, and if higher-paid teachers earn
>"two times what the average household in Latah County makes," then the
>problem is not teacher pay. I suspect that Donovan's figures include
>single-student households, but I don't know. What I do know is that no one
>I'm acquainted with has ever gone into K-12 teaching because of the
>windfall
>salary opportunities.
>
>Last, the idea that schools are requiring courses that are "useless in
>modern society" AND that they should adopt a 14-year model to allow them to
>socialize and train children in citizenship, work skills, social skills,
>Ninja and bowstaff skills, hygiene, reading, composition, math, science,
>and
>the etiquette of community email forum usage is puzzling. The federal
>government, which, under Ronald Reagan, considered eliminating a
>Cabinet-level Department of Education has now become heavy-handed and
>stifling in its control of public education. Curriculum options are
>narrowing because of No Child Left Behind, just as the public and the
>private sector are demanding increased access to job training. A curious
>thing here is that when colleges, universities, and private enterprise are
>willing and able to step alongside the schools to provide job training,
>communities often find that they lack the physical facilities required to
>house such programs. Auto mechanics, computer training, nursing and EMT
>training, shop and vocational courses, electronics and other programs
>cannot
>be housed in buildings that are inadequate even for their current usage,
>and
>when voters choose not to invest in new, modern, technologically forward
>buildings, it's difficult to assume that the private sector will shoulder
>the entire cost. And even if they did, students enrolled in public schools
>still have federal and state requirements that have to be met -- a reality
>that can be difficult for private enterprise to accommodate, and evidently
>impossible for Donovan to understand.
>
>So I write this more for those who might be inclined to jump on the
>"schools
>don't care about job training" bandwagon. They do. Often, though, those
>who yell the loudest against public schools are those who refuse to lend
>their support when given an opportunity to do so.
>
>keely
>
>
>
>
>From: Donovan Arnold
>To: Tom Hansen , 'Tom Ivie' ,
>'keely emerinemix' , gweitz at moscow.com,
>ringoshirl at moscow.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Response to Hansen
>Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:50:37 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Hansen,
>
> MSD is wasting a great deal of money in everything they are doing. 1)
>Not
>having year around school. 2) Starting teachers off at starvation wages
>then raising them to 2x times the average household makes in Latah. 3)
>Requiring courses that are useless in modern society.
>
> Answer to question two. Every business invests money in hiring and
>training employees. The public can split the cost with the businesses. We
>train a student to be a nurse, truck driver, HVAC, etc, upon hirer, that
>business pays half the cost of the education of that student for that
>specific skill learned, that money goes to the school to educate the next
>student for a job. Many business have to front this whole cost of training
>and educating themselves. It would help both the schools and the
>businesses.
>
> Answer to your third question: I would combine the first two years of
>college with are regular education. You do that by starting the children
>in
> school one year earlier and letting them out one year later. When
>students went to college for a four year degree, two years would already
>have been completed. Every student would leave school with a skill that
>would translate to employment upon graduation. This is what school was
>originally for, but somehow lost its purpose and focus.
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
>Tom Hansen wrote: v\:*
>{behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:*
>{behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Question:
>Specifically speaking, how is the Moscow School District “wasting money in
>our current school system?”
>
> Mr. Arnold stated:
>
> “Second, they can get the private sector to help out in many job
>fields. A company wants nothing more than a bunch of highly trained
>workers
> straight out of school.”
>
> Question #1: Who are “they”?
>
> Question #2: Specifically speaking, how can they “get the private
>sector to help out in many job fields?”
>
> By “straight out of school”, do you mean high school or college?
>Judging by your daunting support for a WalMart Super Center, I assume that
>you mean “straight out of high school” as most (if not all) college
>graduates are seeking jobs that evolve into professional careers. If this
>is true, perhaps you would strongly support the concept of vocational high
>schools (which are fairly common in Europe) which would produce “highly
>trained workers straight out of school”
>
> Your thoughts?
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> "Only by going too far can one possibly find out how far
>one can go."
>
> - Jon Dyer
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 7:10 AM
> To: Tom Ivie; keely emerinemix; gweitz at moscow.com;
>ringoshirl at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Minimum wage
>
>
> Tom,
>
> You can pay for it by getting the MSD to stop wasting money in our
>current school system. Second, they can get the private sector to help out
>in many job fields. A company wants nothing more than a bunch of highly
>trained workers straight out of school. Third, if the MSD would come up
>with a proposal that didn't sound like something contrived during a high
>school pot smoking circle they might be able gain community support.
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
> Tom Ivie wrote:
> How do you pay for that when we can't even pass bonds for buildings
>and
> the state has to step in to fund that?
>
> Donovan Arnold wrote:
> . . ."under Donovan's plan, parents will have tons more free time --
> what with being excused from the kinds of things most of us signed up
>for
>as
> parents -- and will then form roaming street gangs or start smoking or
> having sex."-- Keely Mix
>
>
> Keely,
>
> I know you are the expert on education being on the school board and
>all. But, as I understand it, all parents have already been having sex.
>
> _DJA
>
> keely emerinemix wrote:
> Of course, under Donovan's plan, parents will have tons more free
>time
>--
> what with being excused from the kinds of things most of us signed up
>for
>as
> parents -- and will then form roaming street gangs or start smoking or
> having sex.
>
> keely
>
>
> From: Donovan Arnold
> To: Jerry Weitz , Shirley Ringo ,
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Minimum wage
> Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 07:55:21 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Jerry,
>
> I agree with you 100% regarding the workforce training. The school
>system
> needs to start kids one year earlier, let them out one year later ,and
>use
> those two extra years to train youth a job skill, good work ethic, how
>to
> search for and find a job, keep a job, and advance in that field.
>
> They also need to teach youth how to do taxes, be a responsible member
>of
> the community, build social skills, know first aid and establish
>healthy
> eating habits, and all about how credit and debit works.
>
> In other words, schools need to teach youth the things they are going
>to
> need to know about living in modern society and doing well. So many
>things
> you learn in school today seem pointless when you get out and never use
>it.
> You also find yourself hurting in other areas when you are expected to
>know
> how to do something in life but nobody ever taught you.
>
> Thanks for your email.
>
> Best,
>
> _DJA
>
> Jerry Weitz wrote:
> Raising the minimum wage from $5.15 to $6.15 will not help in real
> inflation-adjusted buying power--it is too small of an increase. So
>let’s
> discuss the fundamentals. As Virginia’s former Democratic governor
>Mark
> Warner’s track record illustrates, skills training in our high schools
> would help increase wages for Idaho’s workforce and encourage more
>jobs.
> With the push for community colleges in the urban areas of Idaho, I
>believe
> that our local high schools could become the rural equivalent of
>community
> college. This would cost money and would require a willingness to
>change
> the current high school structure.
>
> The state legislature’s current focus on shifting school funding from
> property taxes to the sales tax (the current maintenance and operations
> debate) misses the point. Instead of focusing on ways to shift funds, I
> would urge consideration for increased funding for the
>creation/maintenance
> of skills centers in local high schools. Rather than seeking a balanced
> taxation approach, the Idaho Education Association has promoted a tax
>shift
> to the sales tax, which sends a confusing message.
>
> When one examines France, with a high minimum wage, a large
> under-skilled/inexperienced segment of its youth, guaranteed employment
> contracts, unbending unionization, top down regulations, etc., one
>observes
> high unemployment, a high cost of living, and extreme social unrest.
>
> What works: 1) create/maintain superior education for both the
> college-bound and the non-college-bound, 2) invest in infrastructure,
>3)
>be
> friendly to business, 4) be environmentally wise, and 5) do this
>without
> going deeply into debt, which requires prioritization. Ireland has
> followed the above policies with exceptional success. We should follow
>the
> lead of former governor Warner and Virginia’s Republican legislature
>and
> make these policies non-partisan. From what I’ve learned, Larry Grant,
>our
> district’s Democratic candidate for Congress, seems to understand this
> non-partisan, middle of the road approach.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> At 11:11 AM 8/7/06, Shirley Ringo wrote:
> Visionaries:
>
>
> I cannot resist the urge to weigh in on the minimum wage issue. I
> proposed legislation during the most recent legislative session to
>raise
> the minimum wage to $6.15. It received very little support from
> Republicans. (Our District 6 Republicans did support it, and
> Representative Trail will co-sponsor the effort with us again next
>year.)
>
> "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
> We plan to try again next year, at an amount above $6.15.
>
>
>
> Without getting into the usual arguments, it’s unacceptable to have a
> minimum wage that leaves those paid at that level in cruel poverty.
> Lawmakers have neglected maintenance on minimum wage levels. In 1968,
>the
> minimum wage meant something positive to families. In
>inflation-adjusted
> dollars, it has lost nearly 40% of its value between 1968 and now.
>
>
>
> According to polling, the vast majority of Americans believe the
>minimum
> wage should be higher. I believe eighteen states have a minimum wage
> higher than the $5.15 federal level, which has not been raised since
>1997.
> Some of these states have used the initiative process to get results,
>where
> state legislators would not act on it. In some of these states, there
>has
> been significant help from Republican leaders.
>
>
>
> Many claims of negative consequences do not seem to be true. One of the
> claims is that jobs will be lost. In the majority of states that have
> raised the minimum wage, there has in fact been an increase in jobs.
>(We
> can’t claim the wage increase caused more jobs, but the decrease some
> predicted didn’t happen.) An increase in employee productivity and less
> absenteeism was reported where the pay level increased.
>
>
>
> On the inflation issue, "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
>/>Florida reported after
> raising their minimum wage a very minor increase in some prices. Since
>a
> relatively small percent of the employed receive minimum wage, one
>might
> not expect a dramatic increase in prices. (We can expect a “ripple
>effect”
> though, where employers will raise wages to be more competitive.) One
>year
> ago in Idaho, according to the Department of Commerce and Labor,
>32,000
> Idahoans received a wage between $5.15 and $6.15 per hour. While Idaho
> State Government employee pay is entirely too low, almost none of them
> receive pay as low as $5.15 per hour. I don’t consider it an undisputed
> fact that there will be significant inflation, but we can certainly
>study
> the issue in the states that have raised the minimum wage.
>
>
>
> Workers who receive minimum wage live from paycheck to paycheck. (If
> they can make it stretch.) They have no discretionary money. What are
> they to do when their taxes go up? Just more water in the gravy, I
>guess.
> At the minimum wage, it takes more than one full day to earn the money
>to
> buy fifteen gallons of gasoline.
>
>
>
> While I continue to study the issue, I am convinced that some of the
> negative consequences of raising the minimum wage are over-stated. I am
> also steadfast in my belief that it is unacceptable to value people and
> families so little that we allow such a low level of compensation for
>their
> efforts and to address their needs.
>
>
>
> Shirley
>
>
>
>
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