[Vision2020] Prayer that violates God

Wed Mar 16 10:14:09 PST 2005

Soooo, all those verses about prayer and how to do it in the bible are wrong??

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Art Deco 
  To: Vision 2020 
  Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Prayer that violates God

  J Ford, Other Thinkers,

  The problem of prayer is much greater than Christ Church Cult Master Douglas (If it ain't my way, it's wrong!) Wilson's covenantal hypocrisy and intolerance.

  The problem of prayer is that prayer is an insidiously egregious insult to an alleged all-powerful or very powerful god!

  1.    If a prayer is a prayer for something to happen, for example, the recovery of a loved one from a serious illness or the home team to win, then asking god to do otherwise than she/he/it originally planned is saying:  "I am smarter than you, god.  I know (in this case) what is best for the universe, not you.  Please do it my way!"  In theological terms, this is thinking oneself superior in knowledge to god; such a sin is sometimes called vanity or in Wilson's case, egomania.  The most obvious case is when in his logic-challenged blog Wilson's prays to/directs his alleged all-powerful god to break people's legs (arms?) -- Tell 'em Dougie, you're smarter than god; you should be in charge of the universe.

  2.    If a prayer is a prayer of praise or thanksgiving, like thanking god for a particularly juicy piece of meat, it is still an insult.   It is implying that god demands, needs, or appreciates such praise/thanks.  These are certainly human qualities, but not they are qualities of a god self-succifient/powerful enough to create/operate the universe.  Such needs/demands/etc. show a profound weakness/character defect.  Think about it.  We most admire those kind/accomplished human beings who are selfless -- who do good without expecting or accepting gratitude.  Praiseful prayers are like offering raw rat-gut stew to the king.  The end result for those offering such mush may be the same in both cases.

  With regard to Wilson and his wipes/minions, I can only echo the sentiments of many:  He is about as far from being a Christ-like person as it is as possible to get (without being in prison [so far]).

  Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
  deco at moscow.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "J Ford" <privatejf32 at hotmail.com>
  To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
  Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:56 PM
  Subject: [Vision2020] Prayer that violates God

  > Below is a link to Doug Wilson’s Blog for today:
  > 
  > http://www.dougwils.com/
  > 
  > If Christ should not be “used for spiritual showboating” why does Doug 
  > Wilson open every meeting, every gathering, every  thing, with a prayer?  
  > And since God does “see(s) the heart in our acts of charity; He also sees 
  > the heart when we come into His presence in prayer” shouldn’t Doug Wilson be 
  > trembling in his boots at this point?
  > 
  > The passage that he marks as relevant to his ranting, Matt 6:5-8 
  > specifically is dealing with people like Jim Baker, et al, that are 
  > obviously praying to receive brownie points – “Oh, doesn’t he look so 
  > Christian praying there like that” or “See how serious she is – look at her 
  > tears” (referring to Tammy Fae)  Doug is telling people that prayer in 
  > public (we pray at meal time even in public – something Doug is NOT 
  > comfortable with and has admonished us for in the past) such as the football 
  > player in the end zone after a really good play resulting in a touchdown.  I 
  > had been told many times by Doug and his minions that such is a practice in 
  > paganism just like wearing of crosses, having a crucifix hanging in our home 
  > or other “shows” of our faith/trust in God.  (My cross is firmly affixed to 
  > my neck chain and shall remain so and the crucifix is very firmly attatched 
  > to our wall in the living room.)
  > 
  > Doug also talks about how people, when praying in a group (for perhaps the 
  > first time,) that use repetitive words are to be ignored or disciplined.  I 
  > know my youngest child, not the best public speaker, gets very nervous about 
  > speaking in front of a bunch of people that are not close friends, and tends 
  > to stutter and not make complete or steady sentences, especially when put on 
  > the spot.  I know plenty of grown people in the same boat – they simply are 
  > not public orators and will trip over words when forced to do something they 
  > are not used to.  So to that person, we are to ridicule, put down, admonish 
  > not to pray, etc, JUST because Doug Wilson says their prayer(s) are not 
  > sincere enough or perfect?  And yet he says “God knows the heart of the 
  > person praying”  IF he truly believes that, then God understands the 
  > nervousness of the prayee and that that person is NOT “violating God” in his 
  > attempts to pray.
  > 
  > Last point:  “We also have to remember what prayer does not do. The point of 
  > prayer is not to ‘fill God in.’…. prayer is not for the purpose of teaching 
  > Him anything. As Christ so plainly puts it, the Father knows what we need 
  > before we ask Him. So why ask Him at all?”
  > 
  > I know of many instances where Doug and his people have made very lengthy 
  > and tiring prayers, “filling God in” and THEN getting to the point of the 
  > prayer.  While God may know before we ask, I feel it is necessary at times 
  > to let God know “I get it – well at least most of it…can you fill in the 
  > missing pieces?”  God has never let me know I have violated Him by doing 
  > this – fact is, He answers me quite clearly that He is very happy with my 
  > prayers even if His answer is “no.”
  > 
  > Again, the throne comes out and see who is sitting on it? (as viewed from 
  > Doug Wilson’s vantage point.)
  > 
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