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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Soooo, all those verses about prayer and how to do
it in the bible are wrong??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 14, 2005 3:37
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Prayer that
violates God</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>J Ford, Other Thinkers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The problem of prayer is much greater than Christ Church
Cult Master Douglas (If it ain't my way, it's wrong!) Wilson's <STRONG><FONT
color=#ff0000 size=5>covenantal hypocrisy and
intolerance</FONT></STRONG>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The problem of prayer is that </FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff size=5><STRONG>prayer is an insidiously egregious insult to an
alleged all-powerful or very powerful god!</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><STRONG>1. If a
prayer</STRONG></FONT> is a prayer for something to happen, for example,
the recovery of a loved one from a serious illness or the home team to win,
then asking god to do otherwise than she/he/it originally planned is
saying: <FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG> "I am smarter than you, god. I
know (in this case) what is best for the universe, not you. Please do it
my way!"</STRONG> </FONT><FONT color=#000000>In theological terms, this
is thinking oneself superior in knowledge to god; such a sin is sometimes
called vanity or in Wilson's case, <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000
size=6>egomania</FONT></STRONG>. The most obvious case is when in his
logic-challenged blog Wilson's prays to/directs his alleged all-powerful
god to break people's legs (arms?) -- Tell 'em Dougie, you're smarter than
god; you should be in charge of the universe.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><STRONG>2. If a
prayer</STRONG></FONT> is a prayer of praise or thanksgiving, like thanking
god for a particularly juicy piece of meat, it is still an insult.
It is implying that god demands, needs, or appreciates such
praise/thanks. These are certainly human qualities, but not
they are qualities of a god self-succifient/powerful enough to
create/operate the universe. Such needs/demands/etc. show a profound
weakness/character defect. Think about it. We most admire those
kind/accomplished human beings who are selfless -- who do good without
expecting or accepting gratitude. Praiseful prayers are like offering
raw rat-gut stew to the king. The end result for those offering such
mush may be the same in both cases.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>With regard to Wilson and his wipes/minions, I can only echo
the sentiments of many: </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000 size=5><STRONG>He is
about as far from being a Christ-like person as it is as possible to get
(without being in prison [so far]).</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "J Ford" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:privatejf32@hotmail.com"><FONT
size=4>privatejf32@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 1:56 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: [Vision2020] Prayer that violates
God</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Below is a link to Doug
Wilson’s Blog for today:<BR>> <BR>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.dougwils.com/"><FONT
size=4>http://www.dougwils.com/</FONT></A><BR><FONT size=4>> <BR>> If
Christ should not be “used for spiritual showboating” why does Doug <BR>>
Wilson open every meeting, every gathering, every thing, with a
prayer? <BR>> And since God does “see(s) the heart in our acts of
charity; He also sees <BR>> the heart when we come into His presence in
prayer” shouldn’t Doug Wilson be <BR>> trembling in his boots at this
point?<BR>> <BR>> The passage that he marks as relevant to his ranting,
Matt 6:5-8 <BR>> specifically is dealing with people like Jim Baker, et al,
that are <BR>> obviously praying to receive brownie points – “Oh, doesn’t
he look so <BR>> Christian praying there like that” or “See how serious she
is – look at her <BR>> tears” (referring to Tammy Fae) Doug is
telling people that prayer in <BR>> public (we pray at meal time even in
public – something Doug is NOT <BR>> comfortable with and has admonished us
for in the past) such as the football <BR>> player in the end zone after a
really good play resulting in a touchdown. I <BR>> had been told many
times by Doug and his minions that such is a practice in <BR>> paganism
just like wearing of crosses, having a crucifix hanging in our home <BR>>
or other “shows” of our faith/trust in God. (My cross is firmly affixed
to <BR>> my neck chain and shall remain so and the crucifix is very firmly
attatched <BR>> to our wall in the living room.)<BR>> <BR>> Doug also
talks about how people, when praying in a group (for perhaps the <BR>>
first time,) that use repetitive words are to be ignored or disciplined.
I <BR>> know my youngest child, not the best public speaker, gets very
nervous about <BR>> speaking in front of a bunch of people that are not
close friends, and tends <BR>> to stutter and not make complete or steady
sentences, especially when put on <BR>> the spot. I know plenty of
grown people in the same boat – they simply are <BR>> not public orators
and will trip over words when forced to do something they <BR>> are not
used to. So to that person, we are to ridicule, put down, admonish
<BR>> not to pray, etc, JUST because Doug Wilson says their prayer(s) are
not <BR>> sincere enough or perfect? And yet he says “God knows the
heart of the <BR>> person praying” IF he truly believes that, then
God understands the <BR>> nervousness of the prayee and that that person is
NOT “violating God” in his <BR>> attempts to pray.<BR>> <BR>> Last
point: “We also have to remember what prayer does not do. The point of
<BR>> prayer is not to ‘fill God in.’…. prayer is not for the purpose of
teaching <BR>> Him anything. As Christ so plainly puts it, the Father knows
what we need <BR>> before we ask Him. So why ask Him at all?”<BR>>
<BR>> I know of many instances where Doug and his people have made very
lengthy <BR>> and tiring prayers, “filling God in” and THEN getting to the
point of the <BR>> prayer. While God may know before we ask, I feel
it is necessary at times <BR>> to let God know “I get it – well at least
most of it…can you fill in the <BR>> missing pieces?” God has never
let me know I have violated Him by doing <BR>> this – fact is, He answers
me quite clearly that He is very happy with my <BR>> prayers even if His
answer is “no.”<BR>> <BR>> Again, the throne comes out and see who is
sitting on it? (as viewed from <BR>> Doug Wilson’s vantage point.)<BR>>
<BR>>
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