[Vision2020] Wayne's challengeD

[Donovan Arnold]

Wayne,

The Aryan Nations were not sued for their beliefs or
religious practices. They were sued for committing
violent acts against individuals. It had nothing to do
with their RELIGION, it had to with forcing their
beliefs on someone else that did not wish to
participate.

They have every right to practice their faith, values,
and beliefs just as any other religion. 

However, they cannot force their religion on another
person against their will. This rule applies to every
religion. 

Christ Church is not pulling people out their cars and
smashing their faces into the gravel by force with a
shot gun to the back of their head. They are not
saying, "Take the law into your own hands and kill a
Jew." They are not shooting at Gays with a shotgun in
downtown Spokane. They are not dragging minorities
into the woods and beating them up. They are not
hanging Black people in the arboretum. It is just is
not happening Mr. Fox! That is what the 12 members of
the Aryan Nations members were doing. 

You just as easily fit into the definition of a hate
group as Christ Church according to the definition of
your referenced website:

 http://www.riskmgtonline.com/rmci_hatecrimes.html 

"Hate groups usually share these views:
 

    * They want to limit the rights of certain groups
and separate society along racial, religious or ethnic
lines.

    * They are anitgovernment.

    * They try to silence the opposition

    * They believe in conspiracies."
 
Douglas Stambler would be proud that you finally see
things his way, Mr.Fox.

Donovan J Arnold




--- Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:

> Phil,
> 
> You claim that the Aryan Brotherhood is called the
> Church of Jesus Christ Christian.  They are.  They
> have also been called the Church of Christ
> Christian.  I have heard Richard Butler use those
> very words.
> 
> http://www.riskmgtonline.com/rmci_domterr.html
> 
> However, such small matters are irrelevant to the
> main issue.
> 
> You argue:
> 
> My problem with the witch hunt now happening here in
> town is that it focuses 
> on the exclusivity of a groups beliefs and not on
> criminality on the part of 
> that group.  As I said, if you can provide me with
> proof that the CCers are 
> out to kill people or are seeking to actively
> supress people's civil rights, 
> I will be the first on the Baricades.  I think that
> so far, you lack that 
> proof."
> 
> As for criminality, including gross obstruction of
> justice, try this link among many:
> 
> http://dougsplotch.com/
> 
> For just a few other matters of criminality, please
> inform yourself about the CCC tax cheating (which in
> effect steals money from all taxpayers) and their
> multiple zoning violations.
> 
> The above list is far from inclusive but ought to be
> alarming, if for no other reason than it shows the
> Christ Church Cult thinks that they are above the
> law (and they have even said so:  Cult Master Wilson
> has specifically and clearly stated that [his
> version of] his alleged God's Laws take precedence
> over the United States Constitution).
> 
> I again append the dicta from the font of Christ
> Church theology/agenda, Credenda/Agenda.  Note,
> Phil, the intentional use of the word "Agenda" in
> the title of their magazine/ezine.  What does that
> word "Agenda" convey to you?  Please read the dicta
> carefully this time to see if you can understand
> what some parts of that "agenda" are.
> 
> Or do you think we should be silent or wait to take
> action until the Christ Church Cult and their
> theocratic allies (like the League of the South) are
> in a position of power to implement their agenda? 
> Isn't that what happened in pre-Nazi Germany -- the
> ignoring of Hitler's agenda until it was too late?
> 
> 
> Here's was your and Donovan's original argument:
> 
> [1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be
> extended to all religions.
> [2]    The Christ Church Cult is a religion.        
>                                           
> [3]    Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should be
> extended tolerance and
>          non-discrimination.
> 
> If the above argument is valid, then so is:
> 
> [1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be
> extended to all religions.
> [2]    The Church of Christ Christian is a religion.
>                                       
> [3]    Therefore, the Church of Christ Christian
> should be extended tolerance and
>          non-discrimination.
> 
> In your last post Phil, you changed the argument to:
> 
> [1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be
> extended to all religions who
>          do not engage in or advocate criminal acts.
> [2]    The Christ Church Cult is a religion which
> does not engage in or advocate
>          illegal acts.                              
>                                                     
> 
> [3]    Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should be
> extended tolerance and
>          non-discrimination.
> 
> That argument fails since as noted above, premise
> [2] is false.
> 
> The threads of this argument Phil, is not about our
> petty squabbles with each other, the principles
> involved far transcend those.
> 
> Two further points, Phil, parts of which I suspect,
> though not fans of each other, we are in at least
> partial, if not strong agreement:
> 
> {1}    We live in a county hopefully and thankfully
> where all are subject to the Rule of Law.  The Rule
> of Law is implemented through various [quasi-]
> justice systems administered by (gasp!) the
> government.  This means whenever someone is accused
> of breaking or holding themselves above the law, the
> recourse for other citizens is through the justice
> systems.
> 
> I am particularly proud of and most thankful to Rose
> Huskey, Saundra Lund, and all others who have taken
> the time and effort to expose and to demand legal
> reparation for the alleged civil and criminal wrongs
> of the Christ Church Cult through the justice system
> and not through some despicable vigilante actions.  
> 
> I resent paying extra taxes because the Christ
> Church Cult does not pay their fair share.  [Tax
> cheats are common criminals, not saints, and need to
> be treated as such.]  Such extra taxation also means
> that I am personally and involuntarily subsidizing
> the cult organization and the promulgation of its
> abhorrent beliefs.  It also means that criminal acts
> by various cult members go unpunished in the
> criminal justice system (see http://dougsplotch.com/
> again), a corrupt perk that is not available to you
> or I.
> 
> Under our constitutional government and the laws
> enacted therefrom, not only should such things not
> happen, but their permitted occurrence undermines
> the constitutional government and the Rule of Law.
> 
> For someone to argue that others should not use the
> various justice systems to correct alleged civil and
> criminal wrongs is to attempt to deny them a right
> just as fundamental and important as any other.
> 
> Less you doubt that I have focused on these
> principles solely to apply them to the Christ Church
> Cult, then you might want to study the index of
> Idaho Reports, (Idaho case law).  You will discover
> that I have fought cases having nothing to do with
> religious belief, but much to do with corruption,
> dishonesty, and cheating -- a profile which also
> fits part of this Christ Church Cult fray.
> 
> {2}    I think Phil that you and I are in complete
> agreement on this:  
> 
> Everyone is entitled to express and to advocate for
> their beliefs.
> 
> It is very important for you to understand the
> meaning of the above statement.  It is perhaps the
> most important cornerstone of an open and free
> society.  
> 
> While you, I, and most others on this list-serve
> might agree on the above principle and its
> importance, you will discover from the dicta below
> that not only does the Christ Church Cult not
> believe in that principle, but if they had their way
> (read: could implement their agenda) those of us
> like you and I that practice it would be stoned to
> death.
> 
> Even more hypocritically, the Christ Church Cult
> uses the freedom of expression principle to
> express/advocate their beliefs at present with the
> explicitly expressed intention of abrogating it once
> they have achieved their ends.
> 
> Here's the important part and why the freedom of
> expression is cornerstone of a free and open
> society:
> 
> No one has absolute ownership of the truth.  When
> anyone expresses and/or advocates a belief, they are
> making knowledge claims and basing those knowledge
> claims on other knowledge claims.  Correctly
> expressed knowledge claims can be either true or
> false.  Just because someone, even Agent of God Cult
> Master Wilson, makes or uses a knowledge claim does
> not automatically mean it is true.  Knowledge claims
> are subject to examination for consistency,
> comparison to other probable sets of knowledge
> claims, the presentation of relevant, non-equivocal
> supporting evidence, etc in order to test their
> truth.
> 
> In simpler terms spoken by an ancient philosopher,
> expressing/advocating for a belief is called
> entering it into the "Marketplace of Ideas".  Once
> entered, a belief is open to all kinds of critical
> examination 
=== message truncated ===>
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