[Vision2020] Wayne's challenge

[Art Deco]

Phil,

You claim that the Aryan Brotherhood is called the Church of Jesus Christ Christian.  They are.  They have also been called the Church of Christ Christian.  I have heard Richard Butler use those very words.

http://www.riskmgtonline.com/rmci_domterr.html

However, such small matters are irrelevant to the main issue.

You argue:

My problem with the witch hunt now happening here in town is that it focuses 
on the exclusivity of a groups beliefs and not on criminality on the part of 
that group.  As I said, if you can provide me with proof that the CCers are 
out to kill people or are seeking to actively supress people's civil rights, 
I will be the first on the Baricades.  I think that so far, you lack that 
proof."

As for criminality, including gross obstruction of justice, try this link among many:

http://dougsplotch.com/

For just a few other matters of criminality, please inform yourself about the CCC tax cheating (which in effect steals money from all taxpayers) and their multiple zoning violations.

The above list is far from inclusive but ought to be alarming, if for no other reason than it shows the Christ Church Cult thinks that they are above the law (and they have even said so:  Cult Master Wilson has specifically and clearly stated that [his version of] his alleged God's Laws take precedence over the United States Constitution).

I again append the dicta from the font of Christ Church theology/agenda, Credenda/Agenda.  Note, Phil, the intentional use of the word "Agenda" in the title of their magazine/ezine.  What does that word "Agenda" convey to you?  Please read the dicta carefully this time to see if you can understand what some parts of that "agenda" are.

Or do you think we should be silent or wait to take action until the Christ Church Cult and their theocratic allies (like the League of the South) are in a position of power to implement their agenda?  Isn't that what happened in pre-Nazi Germany -- the ignoring of Hitler's agenda until it was too late?


Here's was your and Donovan's original argument:

[1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be extended to all religions.
[2]    The Christ Church Cult is a religion.                                                   
[3]    Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should be extended tolerance and
         non-discrimination.

If the above argument is valid, then so is:

[1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be extended to all religions.
[2]    The Church of Christ Christian is a religion.                                       
[3]    Therefore, the Church of Christ Christian should be extended tolerance and
         non-discrimination.

In your last post Phil, you changed the argument to:

[1]    Tolerance and non-discrimination should be extended to all religions who
         do not engage in or advocate criminal acts.
[2]    The Christ Church Cult is a religion which does not engage in or advocate
         illegal acts.                                                                                    
[3]    Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should be extended tolerance and
         non-discrimination.

That argument fails since as noted above, premise [2] is false.

The threads of this argument Phil, is not about our petty squabbles with each other, the principles involved far transcend those.

Two further points, Phil, parts of which I suspect, though not fans of each other, we are in at least partial, if not strong agreement:

{1}    We live in a county hopefully and thankfully where all are subject to the Rule of Law.  The Rule of Law is implemented through various [quasi-] justice systems administered by (gasp!) the government.  This means whenever someone is accused of breaking or holding themselves above the law, the recourse for other citizens is through the justice systems.

I am particularly proud of and most thankful to Rose Huskey, Saundra Lund, and all others who have taken the time and effort to expose and to demand legal reparation for the alleged civil and criminal wrongs of the Christ Church Cult through the justice system and not through some despicable vigilante actions.  

I resent paying extra taxes because the Christ Church Cult does not pay their fair share.  [Tax cheats are common criminals, not saints, and need to be treated as such.]  Such extra taxation also means that I am personally and involuntarily subsidizing the cult organization and the promulgation of its abhorrent beliefs.  It also means that criminal acts by various cult members go unpunished in the criminal justice system (see http://dougsplotch.com/ again), a corrupt perk that is not available to you or I.

Under our constitutional government and the laws enacted therefrom, not only should such things not happen, but their permitted occurrence undermines the constitutional government and the Rule of Law.

For someone to argue that others should not use the various justice systems to correct alleged civil and criminal wrongs is to attempt to deny them a right just as fundamental and important as any other.

Less you doubt that I have focused on these principles solely to apply them to the Christ Church Cult, then you might want to study the index of Idaho Reports, (Idaho case law).  You will discover that I have fought cases having nothing to do with religious belief, but much to do with corruption, dishonesty, and cheating -- a profile which also fits part of this Christ Church Cult fray.

{2}    I think Phil that you and I are in complete agreement on this:  

Everyone is entitled to express and to advocate for their beliefs.

It is very important for you to understand the meaning of the above statement.  It is perhaps the most important cornerstone of an open and free society.  

While you, I, and most others on this list-serve might agree on the above principle and its importance, you will discover from the dicta below that not only does the Christ Church Cult not believe in that principle, but if they had their way (read: could implement their agenda) those of us like you and I that practice it would be stoned to death.

Even more hypocritically, the Christ Church Cult uses the freedom of expression principle to express/advocate their beliefs at present with the explicitly expressed intention of abrogating it once they have achieved their ends.

Here's the important part and why the freedom of expression is cornerstone of a free and open society:

No one has absolute ownership of the truth.  When anyone expresses and/or advocates a belief, they are making knowledge claims and basing those knowledge claims on other knowledge claims.  Correctly expressed knowledge claims can be either true or false.  Just because someone, even Agent of God Cult Master Wilson, makes or uses a knowledge claim does not automatically mean it is true.  Knowledge claims are subject to examination for consistency, comparison to other probable sets of knowledge claims, the presentation of relevant, non-equivocal supporting evidence, etc in order to test their truth.

In simpler terms spoken by an ancient philosopher, expressing/advocating for a belief is called entering it into the "Marketplace of Ideas".  Once entered, a belief is open to all kinds of critical examination to determine if the belief and its supporting context/arguments are true/valid.

The above process is part of what is happening to the Christ Church Cult on the Palouse.  Part of the process is not always pleasant and gentlepersonly, but that is the nature of public discussion in the Marketplace of Ideas.  If you agree with the above stated principle of freedom expression Phil, than I am sure you would not want it to happen any other way.

To recap this last discussion though in reverse:

Part of the Christ Church Cult flap on the Palouse is simply the rumble in the Marketplace of Ideas caused by the critical examination of certain ideas, especially those relevant to human rights, advocated by the Christ Church Cult.  This is a process of an open society.  The process occurs with a very large number of public issues most not concerning Christ Church at all -- political, economic, artistic, social, religious, etc issues.  This is the way freedom of expression works.  This is an important part of the process that engendered our county as it exists today.  There is nothing innately sinister about these principles or practice of these principles.

Likewise, there nothing sinister about asking that the laws be fairly applied to all including the Christ Church Cult.  Like law enforcement authorities know, those who are likely to be caught and punished are those who are most blatant about their lawbreaking.

I cannot speak for anyone else in this fray, but I am guilty of a kind of discrimination.  But one cannot act, or choose not to act, without making decisions.  Making decisions necessarily involves discrimination -- if nothing else, discriminatory choices are made about what goals are important, what facts are to be accepted, and what actions are to be taken.  

If I choose to direct a certain about of my effort in calling attention to the beliefs and crimes (and ask for government action against those crimes) of the Christ Church Cult rather than the beliefs and crimes of the Catholic Church or those of the Mafia, it is because I believe that in the former case I might help bring about some success, and that such a discriminatory choice will help prevent the much, much more serious discrimination, criminal acts, stifling of human aspiration, human death and suffering, and gross injustice in the long run which would result from the Christ Church Cult Agenda.

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

 

____________________________________________________________

>From Credenda/Agenda by Gregory Dickison [Comments added]:

 

http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm

 

 

"The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."



"In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some Christians believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the "harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is the result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is called pity."

"If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..."  [Heresy: Beware, ye not of the cult (including unconverted Jews)!]

"If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her..."   

 

God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the criminal. If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence. 

"Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's...  This means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the bounds which God has established for us."

 

Let's see:

Murder (by even a child), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, cursing one's parents, heresy, etc. are to be punished by death (by stoning) according to Gregor and by the extension of the Cult Master's statements, all of the Christ Church Cult.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:16 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Wayne's challenge


> Wayne Fox issued a challenge suggesting that support for something he 
> refered to as The Church of Christ Christian be a test of a persons belief 
> in religious freedoms and I thought that perhaps clarification should be 
> offered to correct his poorly inspired post.
> 
> First;
> 
> As per normative, Wayne has botched the job in issue of his challenge.  The 
> Church of Christ Christian is actually an organization which its not to hard 
> to defend.  The have a United Organization that even includes Peace and 
> Justice groups and a whole lot of very left leaning ideologies that I am 
> sure Wayne would find of comfort.  Their leader is a guy named, José Abraham 
> De Jesús.
> 
> So heck, Wayne, I am all in support of hammering people who are playing 
> games with that Cleveland based group of churchs.  Boy, that challenge was 
> easy. . .
> 
> However, I think that what Wayne was trying to play at was giving us a 
> challenge to support the religious freedom of The Church of Jesus Christ 
> Christian, the Aryan Brotherhood.  As with other instances of getting the 
> facts wrong, Wayne chose the wrong name, just as he and others here chose 
> false numbers and spouts them as well.
> 
> Still, I will galdly deal with the reality of Wayne's botched challenge, 
> properly corrected to deal with the Aryan Brotherhood.
> 
> You see, Wayne, I would never have taken action against Butler's little 
> group if all they did was sit on a mountain top and believed their bogus 
> idealogy, leaving the rest of us alone.  The Aryan Nation, did not do that 
> and they specifically preached Race War as an active group of violent 
> actions seeking to enforce their system of Aryan domination on all other 
> persons.  They not only preached Race War, they actively promoted training 
> for and stockpiling of weapons for the violent overthrow of the American 
> system and sent teams like the Order out to kill people.
> 
> If you bring me information that the people here in Moscow at Christ Church 
> are planning the violent overthrow of the US government and are training 
> death squads to kill the people on the list of people that they find to be 
> sinners, I will gladly join you on the barricades Wayne.  To date, all I 
> have seen is that they and their church are exclusivist, people who chose 
> not to have certain behaviors tolerated in their group.
> 
> The reality is that we all lack toleration.  Its part of the human 
> condition.  There are people who we do not care to assiciate with.  I can 
> think of any number of them I will not spend time with.
> 
> But being intolerant of others is not the same thing as actively seeking the 
> death of or the suppression of the beliefs of another human being.
> 
> The question is one of deciding what role and when the government, to whit 
> society in general, can or should enter the fray.  For me that threshold is 
> very high and obviously for you that threshold is very low.
> 
> For me the KKK, Aryan Nations, NAMBLA and a variety of other groups who 
> actively harm others and break the law, use violence and other abuses, are 
> fair game.  They cross the line from simple lack of toleration and 
> exclusivity to active harm to others.
> 
> My problem with the witch hunt now happening here in town is that it focuses 
> on the exclusivity of a groups beliefs and not on criminality on the part of 
> that group.  As I said, if you can provide me with proof that the CCers are 
> out to kill people or are seeking to actively supress people's civil rights, 
> I will be the first on the Baricades.  I think that so far, you lack that 
> proof.
> 
> Phil Nisbet
> 
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