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<DIV><FONT size=4>Phil,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You claim that the Aryan Brotherhood is called the Church of
Jesus Christ Christian. They are. They have also been called the
Church of Christ Christian. I have heard Richard Butler use those very
words.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://www.riskmgtonline.com/rmci_domterr.html">http://www.riskmgtonline.com/rmci_domterr.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, such small matters are irrelevant to the main
issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You argue:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>My problem with the witch hunt now happening here in town is that it
focuses <BR>on the exclusivity of a groups beliefs and not on criminality on the
part of <BR>that group. As I said, if you can provide me with proof that
the CCers are <BR>out to kill people or are seeking to actively supress people's
civil rights, <BR>I will be the first on the Baricades. I think that so
far, you lack that <BR>proof."<BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>As for criminality, including gross obstruction of justice,
try this link among many:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><A
href="http://dougsplotch.com/">http://dougsplotch.com/</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>For just a few other matters of criminality, please inform
yourself about the CCC tax cheating (which in effect steals money from all
taxpayers) and their multiple zoning violations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The above list is far from inclusive but ought to be alarming,
if for no other reason than it shows the Christ Church Cult thinks that
they are above the law (and they have even said so: Cult Master Wilson has
specifically and clearly stated that [his version of] his alleged God's Laws
take precedence over the United States Constitution).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I again append the dicta from the font of Christ Church
theology/agenda, <EM>Credenda/<FONT color=#0000ff>Agenda</FONT>.</EM>
Note, Phil, the intentional use of the word "<FONT color=#0000ff>Agenda</FONT>"
in the title of their magazine/ezine. What does that word "<FONT
color=#0000ff>Agenda</FONT>" convey to you? Please read the
dicta carefully this time to see if you can understand what some parts of
that "<FONT color=#0000ff>agenda</FONT>" are.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><STRONG>Or do you think we should be silent or
wait to take action until the Christ Church Cult and their theocratic
allies (like the League of the South) are in a position of power to
implement their <FONT color=#0000ff>agenda</FONT>? Isn't that what
happened in pre-Nazi Germany -- the ignoring of Hitler's <FONT
color=#0000ff>agenda</FONT> until it was too late?</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here's was your and Donovan's original
argument:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[1] Tolerance and non-discrimination should
be extended to all religions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><U>[2] The Christ Church Cult is a
religion.
</U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[3] Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should
be extended tolerance and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
non-discrimination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If the above argument is valid, then so is:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[1] Tolerance and non-discrimination should
be extended to all religions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><U>[2] The Church of Christ
Christian is a
religion. </U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[3] Therefore, the Church of Christ
Christian should be extended tolerance and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
non-discrimination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In your last post Phil, you changed the argument
to:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[1] Tolerance and non-discrimination should
be extended to all religions who</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4> do not engage in
or advocate criminal acts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[2] The Christ Church Cult is a religion
which does not engage in or advocate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=4><U> illegal
acts.
</U></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>[3] Therefore, the Christ Church Cult should
be extended tolerance and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
non-discrimination.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>That argument fails since as noted above, <FONT
color=#ff0000>premise [2] is false</FONT>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The threads of this argument Phil, is not about our petty
squabbles with each other, the principles involved far transcend
those.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Two further points, Phil, parts of which I suspect, though not
fans of each other, we are in at least partial, if not strong
agreement:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>{1} We live in a county hopefully and
thankfully where all are subject to the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law is
implemented through various [quasi-] justice systems administered by (gasp!) the
government. This means whenever someone is accused of breaking or holding
themselves above the law, the recourse for other citizens is through the justice
systems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I am particularly proud of and most thankful to Rose Huskey,
Saundra Lund, and all others who have taken the time and effort to expose and to
demand legal reparation for the alleged civil and criminal wrongs of the Christ
Church Cult through the justice system and not through some despicable vigilante
actions. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I resent paying extra taxes because the Christ Church
Cult does not pay their fair share. [Tax cheats are common criminals,
not saints, and need to be treated as such.] Such extra taxation also
means that I am personally and involuntarily subsidizing the
cult organization and the promulgation of its abhorrent beliefs.
It also means that criminal acts by various cult members go unpunished in the
criminal justice system (see <FONT size=4><A
href="http://dougsplotch.com/">http://dougsplotch.com/</A> again), a
corrupt perk that is not available to you or I.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Under our constitutional government and the laws enacted
therefrom, not only should such things not happen, but their permitted
occurrence undermines the constitutional government and the Rule of
Law.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>For someone to argue that others should not use the various
justice systems to correct alleged civil and criminal wrongs is to attempt to
deny them a right just as fundamental and important as any
other.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Less you doubt that I have focused on these principles solely
to apply them to the Christ Church Cult, then you might want to study the index
of <EM>Idaho Reports</EM>, (Idaho case law). You will discover that I
have fought cases having nothing to do with religious belief, but much to do
with corruption, dishonesty, and cheating -- a profile which also fits part of
this Christ Church Cult fray.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>{2} I think Phil that you and I are in
complete agreement on this: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=5><STRONG>Everyone is entitled to express and to
advocate for their beliefs.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>It is very important for you to understand the meaning of the
above statement. It is perhaps the most important cornerstone of an open
and free society. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>While you, I, and most others on this list-serve might agree
on the above principle and its importance, you will discover from the dicta
below that not only does the Christ Church Cult not believe in that
principle, but if they had their way (read: could implement their <FONT
color=#0000ff>agenda</FONT>) those of us like you and I that practice it would
be stoned to death.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Even more hypocritically, the Christ Church Cult uses the
freedom of expression principle to express/advocate their beliefs at
present with the explicitly expressed intention of abrogating it once they
have achieved their ends.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=4>Here's the important part and why the freedom of
expression is cornerstone of a free and open society:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>No one has absolute ownership of the truth. When anyone
expresses and/or advocates a belief, they are making knowledge claims and basing
those knowledge claims on other knowledge claims. Correctly expressed
knowledge claims can be either true or false. Just because someone, even
Agent of God Cult Master Wilson, makes or uses a knowledge claim does not
automatically mean it is true. Knowledge claims are subject to examination
for consistency, comparison to other probable sets of knowledge claims, the
presentation of relevant, non-equivocal supporting evidence, etc in order to
test their truth.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In simpler terms spoken by an ancient philosopher,
expressing/advocating for a belief is called entering it into the
"Marketplace of Ideas". Once entered, a belief is open to all kinds of
critical examination to determine if the belief and its supporting
context/arguments are true/valid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The above process is part of what is happening to the Christ
Church Cult on the Palouse. Part of the process is not always pleasant and
gentlepersonly, but that is the nature of public discussion in the Marketplace
of Ideas. If you agree with the above stated principle of freedom
expression Phil, than I am sure you would not want it to happen any other
way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To recap this last discussion though in reverse:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Part of the Christ Church Cult flap on the Palouse is simply
the rumble in the Marketplace of Ideas caused by the critical examination of
certain ideas, especially those relevant to human rights, advocated by the
Christ Church Cult. This is a process of an open society. The
process occurs with a very large number of public issues most not concerning
Christ Church at all -- political, economic, artistic, social, religious,
etc issues. This is the way freedom of expression works. This is an
important part of the process that engendered our county as it exists
today. There is nothing innately sinister about these principles or
practice of these principles.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Likewise, there nothing sinister about asking that the laws be
fairly applied to all including the Christ Church Cult. Like law
enforcement authorities know, those who are likely to be caught and punished are
those who are most blatant about their lawbreaking.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I cannot speak for anyone else in this fray, but I am guilty
of a kind of discrimination. But one cannot act, or choose not to act,
without making decisions. Making decisions necessarily involves
discrimination -- if nothing else, discriminatory choices are made about what
goals are important, what facts are to be accepted, and what actions are to be
taken. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>If I choose to direct a certain about of my effort in calling
attention to the beliefs and crimes (and ask for government action against those
crimes) of the Christ Church Cult rather than the beliefs and crimes of the
Catholic Church or those of the Mafia, it is because I believe that in the
former case I might help bring about some success, and that such a
discriminatory choice will help prevent the much, much more serious
discrimination, criminal acts, stifling of human aspiration, human death and
suffering, and gross injustice in the long run which would result from the
Christ Church Cult <FONT color=#0000ff>Agenda</FONT>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">____________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">From <I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Credenda/Agenda</I> by Gregory Dickison
[Comments added]:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><A
href="http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm</FONT></A></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3>"The<STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: blue"> civil magistrate</SPAN></STRONG>
is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (<?xml:namespace prefix
= st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Rom.</st1:place></st1:country-region> 13:4). God
has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office.
The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital
crimes, for example, include <STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: red">premeditated
killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and
cursing one's parents</SPAN></STRONG>..."</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"In contemporary American jurisprudence,
none of these offenses is punishable by death, with the occasional exception of
murder. The magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some
Christians believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that
the "harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is the
result of the <STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">mistaken belief</SPAN></STRONG>
that the Old Testament has no further application after the advent of Christ.
This is an exegetical problem. Too often, it is the result of a sinful view of
the criminal. <STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: red">This sin is called
pity.</SPAN></STRONG>"</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><EM>"If your brother, the son of
your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend
who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve
other gods,". . . you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your
eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill
him..."</EM><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">[Heresy: Beware, ye not of the
cult (including unconverted Jews)!]</SPAN></P>
<P><EM><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">"If two men fight together, and
the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one
attacking him, and puts out the hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you
shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her..."<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></EM></P>
<P><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>God commands the judge to evaluate
the <I>crime</I> rather than the criminal. <STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: red">If
the crime is one for which God requires death,
</SPAN></STRONG></FONT><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: red">then
death </SPAN></STRONG><EM><B><U><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 36pt; COLOR: red">must
</SPAN></U></B></EM><STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt; COLOR: red">be the
punishment.</SPAN></STRONG><FONT size=3> Your eye <I>shall not pity</I>.
<STRONG><SPAN style="COLOR: red">Neither is the repentance of the accused
relevant to the imposition of the sentence.</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="COLOR: red"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not
an option where God has decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's
minister, is to faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not
man's...<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This means that we must
return to an obedience which confines pity within the bounds which God has
established for us."</FONT></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Let's
see:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Murder (by even a child),
kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, cursing one's parents,
heresy, etc. are to be punished by death (by stoning) according to Gregor and by
the extension of the Cult Master's statements, all of the Christ Church
Cult.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN> </P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>----- Original Message ----- </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>From: "Phil Nisbet" <</FONT><A
href="mailto:pcnisbet1@hotmail.com"><FONT
size=4>pcnisbet1@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>To: <</FONT><A href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT
size=4>vision2020@moscow.com</FONT></A><FONT size=4>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 6:16 AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Subject: [Vision2020] Wayne's challenge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>> Wayne Fox issued a
challenge suggesting that support for something he <BR>> refered to as The
Church of Christ Christian be a test of a persons belief <BR>> in religious
freedoms and I thought that perhaps clarification should be <BR>> offered to
correct his poorly inspired post.<BR>> <BR>> First;<BR>> <BR>> As
per normative, Wayne has botched the job in issue of his challenge. The
<BR>> Church of Christ Christian is actually an organization which its not to
hard <BR>> to defend. The have a United Organization that even includes
Peace and <BR>> Justice groups and a whole lot of very left leaning
ideologies that I am <BR>> sure Wayne would find of comfort. Their
leader is a guy named, José Abraham <BR>> De Jesús.<BR>> <BR>> So heck,
Wayne, I am all in support of hammering people who are playing <BR>> games
with that Cleveland based group of churchs. Boy, that challenge was
<BR>> easy. . .<BR>> <BR>> However, I think that what Wayne was trying
to play at was giving us a <BR>> challenge to support the religious freedom
of The Church of Jesus Christ <BR>> Christian, the Aryan Brotherhood.
As with other instances of getting the <BR>> facts wrong, Wayne chose the
wrong name, just as he and others here chose <BR>> false numbers and spouts
them as well.<BR>> <BR>> Still, I will galdly deal with the reality of
Wayne's botched challenge, <BR>> properly corrected to deal with the Aryan
Brotherhood.<BR>> <BR>> You see, Wayne, I would never have taken action
against Butler's little <BR>> group if all they did was sit on a mountain top
and believed their bogus <BR>> idealogy, leaving the rest of us alone.
The Aryan Nation, did not do that <BR>> and they specifically preached Race
War as an active group of violent <BR>> actions seeking to enforce their
system of Aryan domination on all other <BR>> persons. They not only
preached Race War, they actively promoted training <BR>> for and stockpiling
of weapons for the violent overthrow of the American <BR>> system and sent
teams like the Order out to kill people.<BR>> <BR>> If you bring me
information that the people here in Moscow at Christ Church <BR>> are
planning the violent overthrow of the US government and are training <BR>>
death squads to kill the people on the list of people that they find to be
<BR>> sinners, I will gladly join you on the barricades Wayne. To date,
all I <BR>> have seen is that they and their church are exclusivist, people
who chose <BR>> not to have certain behaviors tolerated in their
group.<BR>> <BR>> The reality is that we all lack toleration. Its
part of the human <BR>> condition. There are people who we do not care
to assiciate with. I can <BR>> think of any number of them I will not
spend time with.<BR>> <BR>> But being intolerant of others is not the same
thing as actively seeking the <BR>> death of or the suppression of the
beliefs of another human being.<BR>> <BR>> The question is one of deciding
what role and when the government, to whit <BR>> society in general, can or
should enter the fray. For me that threshold is <BR>> very high and
obviously for you that threshold is very low.<BR>> <BR>> For me the KKK,
Aryan Nations, NAMBLA and a variety of other groups who <BR>> actively harm
others and break the law, use violence and other abuses, are <BR>> fair
game. They cross the line from simple lack of toleration and <BR>>
exclusivity to active harm to others.<BR>> <BR>> My problem with the witch
hunt now happening here in town is that it focuses <BR>> on the exclusivity
of a groups beliefs and not on criminality on the part of <BR>> that
group. As I said, if you can provide me with proof that the CCers are
<BR>> out to kill people or are seeking to actively supress people's civil
rights, <BR>> I will be the first on the Baricades. I think that so
far, you lack that <BR>> proof.<BR>> <BR>> Phil Nisbet<BR>> <BR>>
_________________________________________________________________<BR>> Is
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