[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
Pat Kraut
pkraut at moscow.com
Mon Jun 13 21:59:06 PDT 2005
I am very proud that my name was also on those lists! While living in CDA I was active with Tony Stewart and the Task Force. When the Aryans had their first march we organized a city wide hanging of orange ribbons. Orange is the color of peace, harmony or some such someone had told Tony and we hung them throughout the city. I heard from a friend who saw news reports while visiting in Denver they saw me on TV passing out the ribbon. Yes, my name was on that list and I'd do it again. AND I want you to all know that while I may not agree with CC I would defend their right to say it and be here with anyone!
PK
----- Original Message -----
From: Art Deco
To: Vision 2020
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
Phil,
Before I answer your last comments, I need to get some information from which may alter my outlook on this issue.
You write:
"And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at straws
with that one. Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my part
to see them go to jail and or get nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all of
the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed
and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had
death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?"
Perhaps Phil you could be kind enough to describe in some detail the exact role you played in seeing that the Order was jailed and/or nailed?
I am sure that if your were to do this, then your credentials as civil rights activist would be very impressive to all V 2020ers and certainly give your arguments much more weight.
While you at it, perhaps you would tell us which death lists you were on? That would be really impressive!
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
> Wayne,
>
> Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple fonts and many colors.
>
> The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you wrote is full of error and
> ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller warned of.
>
> The Nazis did not start out sending people to the ovens, Wayne, they used
> the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship of classes of people. The
> Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from trades and professions, from
> government service and from industries and properties.
>
> I can look at your comments and see exactly that behavior. You plan to use
> government to target a group you find objectionable and to see laws passed
> that will make those people second class citizens, or as your buddies have
> frequently claimed, run them out of town.
>
> And please spare me the weird dramatics that you are a group of powerless
> folks fighting some giant army of crazed religious fanatics. The CCers are
> a couple thousand people tops and considering the stringency of their
> religious system, they are not exactly like to get droves of followers. On
> the other hand, I have seen the politics you bring to bear and the mass
> meetings you hold and the rabid dogmatism that you wield as a political
> weapon in this community.
>
> And culture war my eye. You are indeed engaged in a culture war, Wayne, one
> in which you want to see the initiation of your own system with its own
> values and mores forced on other folks. Many of us are just as worried
> about you and your friend’s power as we are of any supposed potential take
> over by the CCers.
>
> And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make statements like;
>
> "None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter,
> brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical violence on the members
> of the Christ Church Cult! No one is coming for them!"
>
> But you are coming for them Wayne, by declaring them enemies of the State,
> boycotting them and otherwise using propaganda that paints them as fiends.
> That is what the Nazis did Wayne, they started small and slowly grew their
> Final Solution.
>
> And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at straws
> with that one. Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my part
> to see them go to jail and or get nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all of
> the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed
> and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had
> death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?
>
> I realize there is a lot of the nation building mythos in you that seems to
> insist that people came here to flee religion, Wayne, but the reality is
> that most of the people who came here came here so that they could practice
> their religion free of governmental interferences. Most of the initial
> colonies had very stringent religious tones and all of our Ivy League
> Schools were founded by religious institutions. The use of government to
> suppress the religious beliefs of people is what is Un-American, Wayne.
>
> My father was a decorated Vet who served his country for 34 years in three
> wars, Wayne. I served my country for three as an 11B. Most of the people
> who changed their names in the US during the years 1914-1945 were doing so
> because there was a pretty strong antipathy to German Names. Anti-Semitism
> has wandered all over the world, Wayne and it’s had its Silver Shirts in
> Seattle that my grandfather used to battle on the docks in the 1920's, it
> was not any stronger in the Army than in civilian life in general.
>
> FDR, who I am sure is one of your grander Heroes, sent people back to
> certain death rather then let more Jews into the US. He also embraced the
> KKK, while his wife preached civil rights. The southern strategy was FDR's
> long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism thrived in memo after memo that
> rolled through the Roosevelt administration.
>
> And then Wayne, you sprint off this little statement;
>
> "It is diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or
> partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who would
> be most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church Cult,
> in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero."
>
> Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not. You are not of "partial Jewish Decent",
> what ever that is supposed to mean. I know full well what it means to be
> hated and hunted simply because I am a Jew. I doubt you have any conception
> of that Wayne and it’s diabolically disgusting to me that you think you can
> play games and claim that you do.
>
> You can not use science to prove or disprove theology, Wayne. By every
> thing that we who are scientists hold valid, proofs based upon the physical
> universe and its laws can not be used to see beyond the threshold of the
> creation of the Universe itself. Any person trying to use science to prove
> or disprove theology is by all rights a quack. For all we know the universe
> was created by Zot the Eternal Earwig, it has no bearing on the study of the
> actual physical conditions and laws that exist in the Universe.
>
> Then this;
>
> "This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by calling it socialistic.
> . ."
>
> What I said, Wayne was National Socialist. That’s NAZI for the more
> educated among us, not simply socialist. You were suggesting that it’s OK
> to target groups if you disagree with their theological ideas and think you
> can show them to be wrong by your standards.
>
> The NAZI's, Wayne, defined Jews as enemies of the state and all Jewish
> thought as dangerous and wrong headed. They had huge tracts showing that
> everything written by any Jew at any time in History was false and dangerous
> to them and to their kind. Just like you claiming that the CCers are out to
> get you, the NAZIs claimed that Jews were out to get them.
>
> So they first defined Jews as not citizens and antipathic to Germaness, then
> they wanted to ship Jews elsewhere and finally decided on their Final
> Solution.
>
> All I have to do is read this little snippet of your posting to see similar
> things in the works;
>
> "The cult is not going to be run out of town. Its leader and some of his
> paid minions may leave town because of possible future actions in the
> criminal/civil justice system, because they may come to realize that their
> dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly out of sync with the majority of
> area residents and thus their ultimate success here is unlikely, and/or they
> cannot bear being the laughingstocks some have become because of their
> asinine words and actions."
>
> In other words, Wayne, you are planning on using governmental action against
> people to force them out. That’s the little routine you mean by "the
> criminal/civil justice system", that you plan on using the force of the
> government against the leadership of a religious group. And once the
> leaders are gone, Wayne, what will be your Final Solution to the CCer
> question?
>
> Phil Nisbet
>
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