[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]

[Donovan Arnold]

As you all know, me and Ms. Kraut do not agree on
much. But there is two things we do agree on. One was
working with Tony Stewart when we lived in CDA against
the Aryan Nations. Tony Stewart was my mentor and
adviser when I attended North Idaho College. I was an
officer in his Human Rights Club and organized many of
the events.

The second thing me and Ms. Kraut agree on is that we
do not agree with CCers but defend their right to
practice and state their beliefs.

I think some people need to call it quits when Jews,
Fundamentalist Christians, Democrats, Liberals,
Libertarians, Republicans, Gays, and others have
agreed that they just have carried their vigilantism
against the CCers a little to far. They are starting
to float way out there on a tiny raft with a big hole
in the side.

Donovan J Arnold 



--- Pat Kraut <pkraut at moscow.com> wrote:

> I am very proud that my name was also on those
> lists! While living in CDA I was active with Tony
> Stewart and the Task Force. When the Aryans had
> their first march we organized a city wide hanging
> of orange ribbons. Orange is the color of peace,
> harmony or some such someone had told Tony and we
> hung them throughout the city. I heard from a friend
> who saw news reports while visiting in Denver they
> saw me on TV passing out the ribbon. Yes, my name
> was on that list and I'd do it again. AND I want you
> to all know that while I may not agree with CC I
> would defend their right to say it and be here with
> anyone! 
> PK
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Art Deco 
>   To: Vision 2020 
>   Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:00 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter
> [Continuing the Thread]
> 
> 
>   Phil,
> 
>   Before I answer your last comments, I need to get
> some information from which may alter my outlook on
> this issue.
> 
>   You write:
> 
>   "And don't give me the analog to Butler, because
> you are grasping at straws 
>   with that one.  Unlike you, I was active against
> the Order and did my part 
>   to see them go to jail and or get nailed.  From
> Butler to Matthews to all of 
>   the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those
> individuals were dangerous, armed 
>   and committed real live acts of violence, murdered
> people, Wayne.  They had 
>   death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?"
> 
>   Perhaps Phil you could be kind enough to describe
> in some detail the exact role you played in seeing
> that the Order was jailed and/or nailed?
> 
>   I am sure that if your were to do this, then your
> credentials as civil rights activist would be very
> impressive to all V 2020ers and certainly give your
> arguments much more weight.
> 
>   While you at it, perhaps you would tell us which
> death lists you were on?  That would be really
> impressive!
> 
>   Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>   deco at moscow.com
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>   To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>   Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:09 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter
> [Continuing the Thread]
> 
> 
>   > Wayne,
>   > 
>   > Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple
> fonts and many colors.
>   > 
>   > The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you
> wrote is full of error and 
>   > ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller
> warned of.
>   > 
>   > The Nazis did not start out sending people to
> the ovens, Wayne, they used 
>   > the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship
> of classes of people.  The 
>   > Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from
> trades and professions, from 
>   > government service and from industries and
> properties.
>   > 
>   > I can look at your comments and see exactly that
> behavior.  You plan to use 
>   > government to target a group you find
> objectionable and to see laws passed 
>   > that will make those people second class
> citizens, or as your buddies have 
>   > frequently claimed, run them out of town.
>   > 
>   > And please spare me the weird dramatics that you
> are a group of powerless 
>   > folks fighting some giant army of crazed
> religious fanatics.  The CCers are 
>   > a couple thousand people tops and considering
> the stringency of their 
>   > religious system, they are not exactly like to
> get droves of followers.  On 
>   > the other hand, I have seen the politics you
> bring to bear and the mass 
>   > meetings you hold and the rabid dogmatism that
> you wield as a political 
>   > weapon in this community.
>   > 
>   > And culture war my eye.  You are indeed engaged
> in a culture war, Wayne, one 
>   > in which you want to see the initiation of your
> own system with its own 
>   > values and mores forced on other folks.  Many of
> us are just as worried 
>   > about you and your friend’s power as we are of
> any supposed potential take 
>   > over by the CCers.
>   > 
>   > And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make
> statements like;
>   > 
>   > "None of the cult's critics is advocating, let
> alone planning to inter, 
>   > brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict
> physical violence on the members 
>   > of the Christ Church Cult!  No one is coming for
> them!"
>   > 
>   > But you are coming for them Wayne, by declaring
> them enemies of the State, 
>   > boycotting them and otherwise using propaganda
> that paints them as fiends.  
>   > That is what the Nazis did Wayne, they started
> small and slowly grew their 
>   > Final Solution.
>   > 
>   > And don't give me the analog to Butler, because
> you are grasping at straws 
>   > with that one.  Unlike you, I was active against
> the Order and did my part 
>   > to see them go to jail and or get nailed.  From
> Butler to Matthews to all of 
>   > the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those
> individuals were dangerous, armed 
>   > and committed real live acts of violence,
> murdered people, Wayne.  They had 
>   > death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?
>   > 
>   > I realize there is a lot of the nation building
> mythos in you that seems to 
>   > insist that people came here to flee religion,
> Wayne, but the reality is 
>   > that most of the people who came here came here
> so that they could practice 
>   > their religion free of governmental
> interferences.  Most of the initial 
>   > colonies had very stringent religious tones and
> all of our Ivy League 
>   > Schools were founded by religious institutions. 
> The use of government to 
>   > suppress the religious beliefs of people is what
> is Un-American, Wayne.
>   > 
>   > My father was a decorated Vet who served his
> country for 34 years in three 
>   > wars, Wayne.  I served my country for three as
> an 11B.  Most of the people 
>   > who changed their names in the US during the
> years 1914-1945 were doing so 
>   > because there was a pretty strong antipathy to
> German Names.  Anti-Semitism 
>   > has wandered all over the world, Wayne and it’s
> had its Silver Shirts in 
>   > Seattle that my grandfather used to battle on
> the docks in the 1920's, it 
>   > was not any stronger in the Army than in
> civilian life in general.
>   > 
>   > FDR, who I am sure is one of your grander
> Heroes, sent people back to 
>   > certain death rather then let more Jews into the
> US.  He also embraced the 
>   > KKK, while his wife preached civil rights.  The
> southern strategy was FDR's 
>   > long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism
> thrived in memo after memo that 
>   > rolled through the Roosevelt administration.
>   > 
>   > And then Wayne, you sprint off this little
> statement;
>   > 
>   > "It is diabolically disgusting, especially to
> those of us of Jewish or 
>   > partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to
> quote Niemoeller, who would 
>   > be most vigorously protesting the dicta and
> goals of the Christ Church Cult, 
>   > in order to make yourself appear to be a
> righteous hero."
>   > 
>   > Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not.  You are not of
> "partial Jewish Decent", 
> 
=== message truncated ===>
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