[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
Phil Nisbet
pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
Mon Jun 13 16:21:24 PDT 2005
Wayne
Several of the members of the Order were based out of Cheney. If you knew
anything about them, you would be aware of that. Three of those members
were also part of the American Legion Post there in Cheney. The Post
required of those individuals that they reswear, as all Legion members are
actually required to do, their oath to defend and uphold the Constitution of
the United States including all provisions thereof. They refused and we
expelled them.
Denver Parmenter was a member of the Order, one of the people booted from
the Legion and also the bag man for the proceeds of their armored car
robberies. Jan Sario (An Alaska Native and fellow Vet) and I had several
talks with Denver and convinced him of the error of his ways, where upon,
Denver rolled on Matthews and the rest.
Prior to Denver turning states on them, Steve Drussell and I had the
occasion to confront four of their bully boys in the Beehive Tavern.
Following that tussle, Denver informed me of the list that they kept and of
my place on it.
If you care to verify any of that, feel free to give Steve Drussel a call.
Steve now works over in Seattle, though at one time he was the Democratic
Candidate for the Washington State Legislature from Yakima who brought
charges of discrimination against the Yakima Police Department for anti-gay
harrassment.
But the Order, that had little to do with Civil Rights, Wayne, it was about
violent criminals.
Civil Rights, Wayne, was helping my mother teach Headstart in Montgomery
Alabama in 1968. Civil Rights was getting my head bashed by George Wallace
for President supporters that same year. Civil Rights was being proud of my
father's role as the XO of the 502nd of the 101st Airborne in puttin
Merridth into ole Miss. Civil Rights, Wayne, was protesting the deportation
of Iranians at the the INS in Seattle in 1980, when only the Moaists were
there other than myself and the Iranian students.
And Wayne, Civil Rights is opposing your attempt to use government coercion
now on people you do not like based upon their religion.
Phil Nisbet
>From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
>To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
>Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:00:32 -0700
>
>Phil,
>
>Before I answer your last comments, I need to get some information from
>which may alter my outlook on this issue.
>
>You write:
>
>"And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at straws
>with that one. Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my part
>to see them go to jail and or get nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all
>of
>the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed
>and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had
>death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?"
>
>Perhaps Phil you could be kind enough to describe in some detail the exact
>role you played in seeing that the Order was jailed and/or nailed?
>
>I am sure that if your were to do this, then your credentials as civil
>rights activist would be very impressive to all V 2020ers and certainly
>give your arguments much more weight.
>
>While you at it, perhaps you would tell us which death lists you were on?
>That would be really impressive!
>
>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>deco at moscow.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 8:09 AM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
>
>
> > Wayne,
> >
> > Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple fonts and many colors.
> >
> > The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you wrote is full of error
>and
> > ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller warned of.
> >
> > The Nazis did not start out sending people to the ovens, Wayne, they
>used
> > the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship of classes of people.
>The
> > Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from trades and professions,
>from
> > government service and from industries and properties.
> >
> > I can look at your comments and see exactly that behavior. You plan to
>use
> > government to target a group you find objectionable and to see laws
>passed
> > that will make those people second class citizens, or as your buddies
>have
> > frequently claimed, run them out of town.
> >
> > And please spare me the weird dramatics that you are a group of
>powerless
> > folks fighting some giant army of crazed religious fanatics. The CCers
>are
> > a couple thousand people tops and considering the stringency of their
> > religious system, they are not exactly like to get droves of followers.
>On
> > the other hand, I have seen the politics you bring to bear and the mass
> > meetings you hold and the rabid dogmatism that you wield as a political
> > weapon in this community.
> >
> > And culture war my eye. You are indeed engaged in a culture war, Wayne,
>one
> > in which you want to see the initiation of your own system with its own
> > values and mores forced on other folks. Many of us are just as worried
> > about you and your friend’s power as we are of any supposed potential
>take
> > over by the CCers.
> >
> > And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make statements like;
> >
> > "None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter,
> > brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical violence on the
>members
> > of the Christ Church Cult! No one is coming for them!"
> >
> > But you are coming for them Wayne, by declaring them enemies of the
>State,
> > boycotting them and otherwise using propaganda that paints them as
>fiends.
> > That is what the Nazis did Wayne, they started small and slowly grew
>their
> > Final Solution.
> >
> > And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at
>straws
> > with that one. Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my
>part
> > to see them go to jail and or get nailed. From Butler to Matthews to
>all of
> > the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous,
>armed
> > and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They
>had
> > death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?
> >
> > I realize there is a lot of the nation building mythos in you that seems
>to
> > insist that people came here to flee religion, Wayne, but the reality is
> > that most of the people who came here came here so that they could
>practice
> > their religion free of governmental interferences. Most of the initial
> > colonies had very stringent religious tones and all of our Ivy League
> > Schools were founded by religious institutions. The use of government
>to
> > suppress the religious beliefs of people is what is Un-American, Wayne.
> >
> > My father was a decorated Vet who served his country for 34 years in
>three
> > wars, Wayne. I served my country for three as an 11B. Most of the
>people
> > who changed their names in the US during the years 1914-1945 were doing
>so
> > because there was a pretty strong antipathy to German Names.
>Anti-Semitism
> > has wandered all over the world, Wayne and it’s had its Silver Shirts in
> > Seattle that my grandfather used to battle on the docks in the 1920's,
>it
> > was not any stronger in the Army than in civilian life in general.
> >
> > FDR, who I am sure is one of your grander Heroes, sent people back to
> > certain death rather then let more Jews into the US. He also embraced
>the
> > KKK, while his wife preached civil rights. The southern strategy was
>FDR's
> > long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism thrived in memo after memo
>that
> > rolled through the Roosevelt administration.
> >
> > And then Wayne, you sprint off this little statement;
> >
> > "It is diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or
> > partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who
>would
> > be most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church
>Cult,
> > in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero."
> >
> > Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not. You are not of "partial Jewish
>Decent",
> > what ever that is supposed to mean. I know full well what it means to
>be
> > hated and hunted simply because I am a Jew. I doubt you have any
>conception
> > of that Wayne and it’s diabolically disgusting to me that you think you
>can
> > play games and claim that you do.
> >
> > You can not use science to prove or disprove theology, Wayne. By every
> > thing that we who are scientists hold valid, proofs based upon the
>physical
> > universe and its laws can not be used to see beyond the threshold of the
> > creation of the Universe itself. Any person trying to use science to
>prove
> > or disprove theology is by all rights a quack. For all we know the
>universe
> > was created by Zot the Eternal Earwig, it has no bearing on the study of
>the
> > actual physical conditions and laws that exist in the Universe.
> >
> > Then this;
> >
> > "This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by calling it
>socialistic.
> > . ."
> >
> > What I said, Wayne was National Socialist. That’s NAZI for the more
> > educated among us, not simply socialist. You were suggesting that it’s
>OK
> > to target groups if you disagree with their theological ideas and think
>you
> > can show them to be wrong by your standards.
> >
> > The NAZI's, Wayne, defined Jews as enemies of the state and all Jewish
> > thought as dangerous and wrong headed. They had huge tracts showing
>that
> > everything written by any Jew at any time in History was false and
>dangerous
> > to them and to their kind. Just like you claiming that the CCers are
>out to
> > get you, the NAZIs claimed that Jews were out to get them.
> >
> > So they first defined Jews as not citizens and antipathic to Germaness,
>then
> > they wanted to ship Jews elsewhere and finally decided on their Final
> > Solution.
> >
> > All I have to do is read this little snippet of your posting to see
>similar
> > things in the works;
> >
> > "The cult is not going to be run out of town. Its leader and some of
>his
> > paid minions may leave town because of possible future actions in the
> > criminal/civil justice system, because they may come to realize that
>their
> > dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly out of sync with the
>majority of
> > area residents and thus their ultimate success here is unlikely, and/or
>they
> > cannot bear being the laughingstocks some have become because of their
> > asinine words and actions."
> >
> > In other words, Wayne, you are planning on using governmental action
>against
> > people to force them out. That’s the little routine you mean by "the
> > criminal/civil justice system", that you plan on using the force of the
> > government against the leadership of a religious group. And once the
> > leaders are gone, Wayne, what will be your Final Solution to the CCer
> > question?
> >
> > Phil Nisbet
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
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