[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
Phil Nisbet
pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com
Mon Jun 13 08:09:33 PDT 2005
Wayne,
Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple fonts and many colors.
The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you wrote is full of error and
ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller warned of.
The Nazis did not start out sending people to the ovens, Wayne, they used
the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship of classes of people. The
Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from trades and professions, from
government service and from industries and properties.
I can look at your comments and see exactly that behavior. You plan to use
government to target a group you find objectionable and to see laws passed
that will make those people second class citizens, or as your buddies have
frequently claimed, run them out of town.
And please spare me the weird dramatics that you are a group of powerless
folks fighting some giant army of crazed religious fanatics. The CCers are
a couple thousand people tops and considering the stringency of their
religious system, they are not exactly like to get droves of followers. On
the other hand, I have seen the politics you bring to bear and the mass
meetings you hold and the rabid dogmatism that you wield as a political
weapon in this community.
And culture war my eye. You are indeed engaged in a culture war, Wayne, one
in which you want to see the initiation of your own system with its own
values and mores forced on other folks. Many of us are just as worried
about you and your friends power as we are of any supposed potential take
over by the CCers.
And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make statements like;
"None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter,
brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical violence on the members
of the Christ Church Cult! No one is coming for them!"
But you are coming for them Wayne, by declaring them enemies of the State,
boycotting them and otherwise using propaganda that paints them as fiends.
That is what the Nazis did Wayne, they started small and slowly grew their
Final Solution.
And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at straws
with that one. Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my part
to see them go to jail and or get nailed. From Butler to Matthews to all of
the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed
and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne. They had
death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?
I realize there is a lot of the nation building mythos in you that seems to
insist that people came here to flee religion, Wayne, but the reality is
that most of the people who came here came here so that they could practice
their religion free of governmental interferences. Most of the initial
colonies had very stringent religious tones and all of our Ivy League
Schools were founded by religious institutions. The use of government to
suppress the religious beliefs of people is what is Un-American, Wayne.
My father was a decorated Vet who served his country for 34 years in three
wars, Wayne. I served my country for three as an 11B. Most of the people
who changed their names in the US during the years 1914-1945 were doing so
because there was a pretty strong antipathy to German Names. Anti-Semitism
has wandered all over the world, Wayne and its had its Silver Shirts in
Seattle that my grandfather used to battle on the docks in the 1920's, it
was not any stronger in the Army than in civilian life in general.
FDR, who I am sure is one of your grander Heroes, sent people back to
certain death rather then let more Jews into the US. He also embraced the
KKK, while his wife preached civil rights. The southern strategy was FDR's
long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism thrived in memo after memo that
rolled through the Roosevelt administration.
And then Wayne, you sprint off this little statement;
"It is diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or
partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who would
be most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church Cult,
in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero."
Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not. You are not of "partial Jewish Decent",
what ever that is supposed to mean. I know full well what it means to be
hated and hunted simply because I am a Jew. I doubt you have any conception
of that Wayne and its diabolically disgusting to me that you think you can
play games and claim that you do.
You can not use science to prove or disprove theology, Wayne. By every
thing that we who are scientists hold valid, proofs based upon the physical
universe and its laws can not be used to see beyond the threshold of the
creation of the Universe itself. Any person trying to use science to prove
or disprove theology is by all rights a quack. For all we know the universe
was created by Zot the Eternal Earwig, it has no bearing on the study of the
actual physical conditions and laws that exist in the Universe.
Then this;
"This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by calling it socialistic.
. ."
What I said, Wayne was National Socialist. Thats NAZI for the more
educated among us, not simply socialist. You were suggesting that its OK
to target groups if you disagree with their theological ideas and think you
can show them to be wrong by your standards.
The NAZI's, Wayne, defined Jews as enemies of the state and all Jewish
thought as dangerous and wrong headed. They had huge tracts showing that
everything written by any Jew at any time in History was false and dangerous
to them and to their kind. Just like you claiming that the CCers are out to
get you, the NAZIs claimed that Jews were out to get them.
So they first defined Jews as not citizens and antipathic to Germaness, then
they wanted to ship Jews elsewhere and finally decided on their Final
Solution.
All I have to do is read this little snippet of your posting to see similar
things in the works;
"The cult is not going to be run out of town. Its leader and some of his
paid minions may leave town because of possible future actions in the
criminal/civil justice system, because they may come to realize that their
dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly out of sync with the majority of
area residents and thus their ultimate success here is unlikely, and/or they
cannot bear being the laughingstocks some have become because of their
asinine words and actions."
In other words, Wayne, you are planning on using governmental action against
people to force them out. Thats the little routine you mean by "the
criminal/civil justice system", that you plan on using the force of the
government against the leadership of a religious group. And once the
leaders are gone, Wayne, what will be your Final Solution to the CCer
question?
Phil Nisbet
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