[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]

[keely emerinemix]

Time doesn't allow me to pursue a longer response to Phil or to Wayne, 
although I share Wayne's concern that Phil quoted Niemuller in denouncing 
the outcry against CC.  But I will answer Phil's last question and offer my 
"final solution to the CC question," for all it's worth:

-- Love them, especially when they announce themselves to be my enemies, and 
pray for them
-- Challenge from Scripture errant arguments made on the presumptive basis 
of Scripture
-- Rebuke those who commit sinful actions in the name of Christian 
"dominion"
-- Avoid spending money to enhance CC coffers
-- Treat individual CCers, NSA students, and other Kirkers with sincere 
respect
-- Represent a Christian faith that is grounded in Christ and the fruit of 
the Spirit
-- Recognize that I fail in that often
-- Go about my daily life with a sense of humor, perspective, and context

Now, as one of the more outspoken evangelical critics of Christ Church, and 
as a friend of many other people who are actively seeking to hold the Kirk 
accountable for its actions, I'd like Phil to seriously reconsider the idea 
that we are goosestepping in the footsteps of the Nazis.  Any glass breaking 
around Moscow is not Krystallnacht, Phil, but more likely the post-last call 
revelry of youth.

A little perspective here, please.

keely emerine mix



From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 08:09:33 -0700

Wayne,

Amazing, ten whole pages of screed in multiple fonts and many colors.

The pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post that you wrote is full of error and 
ripe with the exact things Martin Niemoeller warned of.

The Nazis did not start out sending people to the ovens, Wayne, they used 
the law to dehumanize and remove the citizenship of classes of people.  The 
Nurnburg laws focused on removing people from trades and professions, from 
government service and from industries and properties.

I can look at your comments and see exactly that behavior.  You plan to use 
government to target a group you find objectionable and to see laws passed 
that will make those people second class citizens, or as your buddies have 
frequently claimed, run them out of town.

And please spare me the weird dramatics that you are a group of powerless 
folks fighting some giant army of crazed religious fanatics.  The CCers are 
a couple thousand people tops and considering the stringency of their 
religious system, they are not exactly like to get droves of followers.  On 
the other hand, I have seen the politics you bring to bear and the mass 
meetings you hold and the rabid dogmatism that you wield as a political 
weapon in this community.

And culture war my eye.  You are indeed engaged in a culture war, Wayne, one 
in which you want to see the initiation of your own system with its own 
values and mores forced on other folks.  Many of us are just as worried 
about you and your friend’s power as we are of any supposed potential take 
over by the CCers.

And yes Wayne, just like Hitler, you can make statements like;

"None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter, 
brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical violence on the members 
of the Christ Church Cult!  No one is coming for them!"

But you are coming for them Wayne, by declaring them enemies of the State, 
boycotting them and otherwise using propaganda that paints them as fiends.  
That is what the Nazis did Wayne, they started small and slowly grew their 
Final Solution.

And don't give me the analog to Butler, because you are grasping at straws 
with that one.  Unlike you, I was active against the Order and did my part 
to see them go to jail and or get nailed.  From Butler to Matthews to all of 
the Neo-Nazis there and in Cheney, those individuals were dangerous, armed 
and committed real live acts of violence, murdered people, Wayne.  They had 
death lists, Wayne, were you ever on them?

I realize there is a lot of the nation building mythos in you that seems to 
insist that people came here to flee religion, Wayne, but the reality is 
that most of the people who came here came here so that they could practice 
their religion free of governmental interferences.  Most of the initial 
colonies had very stringent religious tones and all of our Ivy League 
Schools were founded by religious institutions.  The use of government to 
suppress the religious beliefs of people is what is Un-American, Wayne.

My father was a decorated Vet who served his country for 34 years in three 
wars, Wayne.  I served my country for three as an 11B.  Most of the people 
who changed their names in the US during the years 1914-1945 were doing so 
because there was a pretty strong antipathy to German Names.  Anti-Semitism 
has wandered all over the world, Wayne and it’s had its Silver Shirts in 
Seattle that my grandfather used to battle on the docks in the 1920's, it 
was not any stronger in the Army than in civilian life in general.

FDR, who I am sure is one of your grander Heroes, sent people back to 
certain death rather then let more Jews into the US.  He also embraced the 
KKK, while his wife preached civil rights.  The southern strategy was FDR's 
long before it was Nixon's and Anti-Semitism thrived in memo after memo that 
rolled through the Roosevelt administration.

And then Wayne, you sprint off this little statement;

"It is diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or 
partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who would 
be most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church Cult, 
in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero."

Wayne, I am Jewish, you are not.  You are not of "partial Jewish Decent", 
what ever that is supposed to mean.  I know full well what it means to be 
hated and hunted simply because I am a Jew.  I doubt you have any conception 
of that Wayne and it’s diabolically disgusting to me that you think you can 
play games and claim that you do.

You can not use science to prove or disprove theology, Wayne.  By every 
thing that we who are scientists hold valid, proofs based upon the physical 
universe and its laws can not be used to see beyond the threshold of the 
creation of the Universe itself.  Any person trying to use science to prove 
or disprove theology is by all rights a quack.  For all we know the universe 
was created by Zot the Eternal Earwig, it has no bearing on the study of the 
actual physical conditions and laws that exist in the Universe.

Then this;

"This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by calling it socialistic. 
. ."

What I said, Wayne was National Socialist.  That’s NAZI for the more 
educated among us, not simply socialist.  You were suggesting that it’s OK 
to target groups if you disagree with their theological ideas and think you 
can show them to be wrong by your standards.

The NAZI's, Wayne, defined Jews as enemies of the state and all Jewish 
thought as dangerous and wrong headed.  They had huge tracts showing that 
everything written by any Jew at any time in History was false and dangerous 
to them and to their kind.  Just like you claiming that the CCers are out to 
get you, the NAZIs claimed that Jews were out to get them.

So they first defined Jews as not citizens and antipathic to Germaness, then 
they wanted to ship Jews elsewhere and finally decided on their Final 
Solution.

All I have to do is read this little snippet of your posting to see similar 
things in the works;

"The cult is not going to be run out of town.  Its leader and some of his 
paid minions may leave town because of possible future actions in the 
criminal/civil justice system, because they may come to realize that their 
dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly out of sync with the majority of 
area residents and thus their ultimate success here is unlikely, and/or they 
cannot bear being the laughingstocks some have become because of their 
asinine words and actions."

In other words, Wayne, you are planning on using governmental action against 
people to force them out.  That’s the little routine you mean by "the 
criminal/civil justice system", that you plan on using the force of the 
government against the leadership of a religious group.  And once the 
leaders are gone, Wayne, what will be your Final Solution to the CCer 
question?

Phil Nisbet

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