[Vision2020] An Open Letter [Continuing the Thread]

Sun Jun 12 16:45:58 PDT 2005

       

      Phil,

       
      Andreas has already made a concise, pungent reply to your pseudo-dramatic, pseudo-heroic post below.  I will take a slightly different tack.

       
      You shamelessly and ironically cite the haunting words of Martin Niemoeller as if it applied to the cultural war between the Christ Church Cult and its critics:

       
      "When they came for the communists, I was silent, because I was not a communist;

      When they came for the socialists, I was silent, because I was not a socialist;

      When they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest, because I was not a trade unionist;

      When they came for the Jews, I did not protest, because I was not a Jew;

      When they came for me, there was no one left to protest on my behalf."

       
      Phil, besides insulting Niemoeller and misapplying his words, you must be also reading The Art of Deception, one of Cult Master Wilson's favorite guides in his war on freedom and his obsessive drive to convert all to be under his egomaniacal, megalomaniacal control.

       
      For most, the following paragraphs are unnecessary on this forum, but to help you understand the present fray, here goes:

       
      Your analogous use of Niemoeller's words is not applicable because:

       
      None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter, brand, gas, hang, and/or otherwise inflict physical violence on the members of the Christ Church Cult!  No one is coming for them!

       
      Although I am a nonbeliever, the Cult Master's critics include many committed Christians and committed proponents of other religious faiths.

       
      That you would use Niemoeller to justify your position is not only an obviously fallacious analogy but an egregious insult to Niemoeller.

       
      Further, you apparently didn't read or else failed to understand the exact language of the dicta quoted verbatim from Credenda/Agenda (aka Crudinto/Adumpsta) – the spokes-beacon of the cult.  For your convenience, I have again included it below.  Please read it again carefully so that you understand the impact of its intent, especially on persons like yourself.  Then you will see that:

       
      Unlike its critics, the Christ Church Cult through its dogma does advocate death (by stoning) for all who do not share its beliefs and/or who behave in ways not in accordance with certain cult dicta!

       
      Having an intimate relationship with someone you love of the same sex?  Get out the stones!

       
      Don't believe that slavery is not a good Christian institution?  Get out the stones!

       
      Don't believe the Cult Master Wilson is God's channeller of the absolute truth on earth?  Get out the stones!

       
      Cursed your parents? Get out the stones!

       
      Had or having an affair?  Get out the stones!

       
      Are you an unrepentant Jew, Quaker, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Absolute Monist, etc, and hence a heretic?  Get out the stones!

       
      Think that Christ Church Cult dicta is a heinous load of elephant shit?  Get out the stones!

       
      Perhaps Phil you have forgotten why people fled England and other religiously despotic counties to found our great country a few centuries ago?  It was because they were fleeing oppressive religious/political despotism not as extreme as but very similar to present Christ Church Cult dicta.

       
      My father served with the United States Navy for six years in WWII.  He was under direct fire and bombardment many times and was a multi-decorated veteran.  Why is this important?  My father's family was Jewish.  My father changed his name from Mueller to Miller during the 1930s and then from Miller to Fox during his military service during WWII in order to attempt to escape anti-Semitism rampant in some parts of the country and in some parts of the American military.

       
      Read the cult dicta, some of which is posted below.  Think that Hitler was Draconian?  There would be many, many more categories of people destroyed if the cult could have its way than those unlucky enough to be targeted by Hitler!  It is diabolically disgusting, especially to those of us of Jewish or partial Jewish descent, that you would stoop to quote Niemoeller, who would be most vigorously protesting the dicta and goals of the Christ Church Cult, in order to make yourself appear to be a righteous hero.

       
      You say:

       
      'And Wayne's, "Tolerance can end when ideas are expressed and argued for, for if those ideas do not survive critical examination they ought not be tolerated, especially if Draconian." is a flat statement of National Socialist ideals.  Under that sort of dictum it becomes totally permisable to lack toleration of those who disagree with you, the very first step to open the gas chambers.'

       
      Let's see.

       
      Under your thinking, we should not critically examine ideas and the behavioral consequences of those ideas no matter how asinine and/or how dire?

       
      What do you think science or knowledge by observation/logic is?  It is the quest for understanding by demanding that ideas be clearly stated, critically analyzed and tested, and (gasp!) verified.  This kind of thinking, which you are criticizing by calling it socialistic, is what has enabled us, among other things, to land persons on the moon and watch this event in quasi-real time in the comfort of our living rooms, and to eradicate many of the diseases which formerly ravaged and tortured humankind.

       
      Repeat:

       
      None of the cult's critics is advocating, let alone planning to inter, brand, gas, hang, or otherwise inflict physical violence on the members of the Christ Church Cult!  No one is coming for them!

       
      The cult is free to believe and to advocate their dicta.  Repeat:  The cult is free to believe and to advocate their dicta.  I have never heard any of the cult's critics even hint that this should not be so – quite the opposite.  However, this is the exact opposite of cult belief:  Heretics like myself, my friends, millions (billions?) of others, and even you Phil, would be subject to death if we were to express beliefs not in conformance with Cult Master Wilson's explicit version of his reality.

       
      Tolerance and freedom of expression does not mean all beliefs are equal in truth or value.

       
      I can't speak for you but, for example, I do not tolerate the beliefs and their resulting consequences of those who withhold medical treatment from their seriously ill underage children because of their faith that some alleged god will intervene on their behalf.  Similarly, I do not tolerate the beliefs of those who would eradicate most of the world's population simply because those persons do not accept certain unclear, unproven, untestable, unverifiable, delusional, superstitious dogma.

       
      The critics of the Christ Church cult are at a large tactical disadvantage.  They cannot call for the eradication of cult members, nor do they wish such.  They refuse to stoop to dishonesty and hypocrisy (see Rose's last posts, for examples of Wilson's guileful dishonesty).  They will not hypocritically, dishonestly, and diabolically yell "Discrimination!" like the cult does when the cult's proposed scope of advocated discrimination is so much, much larger and much, much more destructive than any of that of which the critics of the cult are accused.

       
      This is a cultural war where the cult's detractors are limited to engaging in public debate/comment, requesting that the cult obey the same laws as the rest of us, and advocating the boycott of those who finance and thus promulgate the cult's advocated destruction of many people and many of our most cherished liberties.

       
      You write:

       
      "Then I see a group of people deciding on the basis of religion that certain people should not be allowed to hold office.  I see those same people deciding to target the businesses of their opponents.  I see them cry that their opposition should be driven from the community as unworthy of living in the presence of the rest of us."

       
      Let's see.

       
      We should not think of voting against Richard Butler (Aryan Nations, now deceased), for example, simply because of his religiously based anti-Semitic, etc views?  We should not consider voting against cult member Paul Kimmell because of his religious beliefs and his avowed intention to consult with cult elders and to not act against cult dicta (under threat of cult discipline) in the performance of his sworn, public duty?

       
      Niemoeller would call you the most despicable of all enablers!

       
      Almost all of the persons I have politically supported with my vote, money and efforts have religious beliefs different from mine – sometimes radically different.  However, I support them because most rely upon on experience and testable, verifiable information in the performance of their public duties.  They do not insist upon their personal religious dicta in this performance, which dicta many know in their heart of hearts to be highly speculative, universally heterogeneous, and not subject to definitive testing, and, most importantly, they have the decency/integrity not to impose such uncertainty upon the rest of us.

       
      When Kimmell or any other politician wants to impose his religious dicta upon us, he is not going to get my vote, money, or effort.  Quite the contrary – think the Taliban, Nazism, the Inquisition, etc.  I will not be a silent or disinterested enabler.

       
      Again, Phil, I urge you to remember some of the motivations for the origin of our country.  We are the result of the craving for liberty against the forced imposition of political and religious dogma.  Freedom of expression, freedom of association, and the right to the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness are our heritage and ideals.  


      We are here because courageous peoples took great risks and sacrificed much, including their lives so that we can chose who are friends are, who are life's partners are, which gods to worship or not worship, what we can say and how to say it, and to pursue the careers and ambitions of our choice with the hopes that our abilities and honest efforts will fairly lead to our successes no matter how high our chosen aspirations.

       
      If you read and understand the dicta from Gregor Dickison below, you will see that the goals, beliefs, and actions of the Christ Church Cult are completely antithetical to the ideals stated just above.  And they are to be enforced by violent death, if necessary.

       
      The cult is not going to be run out of town.  Its leader and some of his paid minions may leave town because of possible future actions in the criminal/civil justice system, because they may come to realize that their dicta, dishonesty, and actions are horribly out of sync with the majority of area residents and thus their ultimate success here is unlikely, and/or they cannot bear being the laughingstocks some have become because of their asinine words and actions.

       
      Upon serious reflection Phil, you have a personal stake in this.  As a Jew and non-cult member, you are a heretic.  Should you not renounce such a status, then if the cult succeeds in its societal transformation, then in the words of Andreas:

       
      "In Doug's America, you're first against the wall."

       
      In this regard Phil, you really need to take Niemoeller's words in their original meaning in their original context very seriously.  I know I do — because the actions consequent upon the Christ Church Cult agenda/dogma are exactly the phenomenon that Niemoeller so greatly feared:  the terrors of religious/political tyranny.


      Wayne A. Fox
      1009 Karen Lane
      PO Box 9421
      Moscow, ID  83843

      (208) 882-7975
      waf at moscow.com
       

      PS to Ted Moffett whose post arrived after the draft of the above reply:

       
      I don't consider all people with religious beliefs to be mentally ill.  There are many people with sincere religious beliefs who reluctanly own (at least to themselves) that their cherished beliefs are speculative, untestable, at odds with the known probabilities of experience/science, and at odds with thousands (millions? billions?) of other religious beliefs.  These sincere believers at least realize that it is possible that their religious beliefs, though therapeutic, may possibly be partly or wholly fantasy.

       
      The difference between them and people like Cult Master Wilson is that while the former acknowledge that their religious beliefs may possibly be in error, Wilson does not admit any such possibility of error, but apodictically and without verifiable, definitive evidence insists that his religious dogma is the one and only absolute truth.

       
      The difference between Wilson and his ilk (like Daily News columnist Bill Tozier) and the others described above is this:

       
      When defense/coping mechanisms are used with the realization they are or may be based on fantasy that is not necessarily a symptom of mental illness.  When the truth of contradictory and/or unevidenced/unverifiable dogma is insisted upon as absolute reality, and especially when it is insisted that all others embrace this reality under threat of death, exile, etc, then we enter the realm of the dangerously pathological in my opinion.

       
      There is a vast difference in mental health of those who recognize the possibility of error and those who insist without credible/verifiable proof that there is absolutely no error in their views and that their views are the only true ones, and even hold the threat of death over others who do not accept those views.

       
      As to colors, font sizes, etc, that is my current style.  As it is basically harmless though maybe distracting or inane to some, I pray for the liberty and your indulgence to continue using it.

       
      W.

       
      ____________________________________________________________

      ____________________________________________________________

       
      Normal People,

       
      The post from Andreas is right on target. 

       
      Combine this with material submitted several times showing that the Cult Master and his ovine, mesmerized flock believe that stoning to death is the proper treatment for a whole host of people — perhaps 80% or more of the world's population.  [Without recycling, there may not be enough stones of the proper size for this task!]

       
      Here are the views of the Christ Church Cult as expressed by Gregor Dickison, Cult Attorney, and agreed to by the Cult Master in several places including an article in the LMT — "We should never be ashamed of anything in the bible."

       
      http://www.credenda.org/old/issues/vol3/magi3-9.htm

       
      "The civil magistrate is the minister of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer (Rom. 13:4). God has not left his civil minister without guidance on how to exercise his office. The Scriptures set forth clear standards of judgment for many offenses. Capital crimes, for example, include premeditated killing (murder), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, and cursing one's parents..."


      "In contemporary American jurisprudence, none of these offenses is punishable by death, with the occasional exception of murder. The magistrates have dispensed with God's standards of justice. Some Christians believe this is an improvement. They would be horrified to think that the "harsh" penalties of the law should still be applied. Sometimes this is the result of the mistaken belief that the Old Testament has no further application after the advent of Christ. This is an exegetical problem. Too often, it is the result of a sinful view of the criminal. This sin is called pity."

      "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,". . . you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him..."  [Heresy: Beware, ye not of the cult!]

      "If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out the hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her..."   [Defending one's husband.]

      God commands the judge to evaluate the crime rather than the criminal. If the crime is one for which God requires death, then death must be the punishment. Your eye shall not pity. Neither is the repentance of the accused relevant to the imposition of the sentence. [Somehow it appears that Gregor has missed the central message of Jesus.]

      "Thus, the Bible teaches that pity is not an option where God has decided the matter. The [civil] magistrate, God's minister, is to faithfully execute justice according to God's standard, not man's...  This means that we must return to an obedience which confines pity within the bounds which God has established for us."

      Let's see:

      Murder (by even a child), kidnapping, sorcery, bestiality, adultery, homosexuality, cursing one's parents, heresy, defending one's husband, etc. should be punished by death (by stoning) according to Gregor and by the extension of the Cult Master's statements, all of the Christ Church Cult.

      All these rules are established by the Cult Master's exclusive version of his alleged god, not one of the thousands (millions?) of other alleged gods, and with no accepted, successful method to decide which of these alleged gods, if any, is/are the real one(s).

       
      Are these the views of mentally healthy adults?

       
      Would you want to live anywhere where they (the Christ Church Cult) were in control?


      Andreas writes:

      "What is crazy is not that people object to this: what is crazy is that we, which is to say, Moscow and Latah County, are electing people who subscribe to this set of beliefs to public office. What is crazy is that we're taking their openly hypocritical cries for tolerance seriously."

      Tell us, Donovan, how intolerant we are when:

      "In Doug's America, you're first against the wall."

      Tolerance can end when ideas are expressed and argued for, for if those ideas do not survive critical examination they ought not be tolerated, especially if Draconian.  

      Tolerance is not the uncritical acceptance of anything let alone the acceptance and/or permissive ignoring of the sociopathological, logically/epistemologically unsound, superstitious dicta from an obscenely ambitious, dishonest/hypocritical, but small-minded/relatively ignorant small town parson.

      Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)

      deco at moscow.com

       
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter


> "When they came for the communists, I was silent, because I was not a 
> communist;
> When they came for the socialists, I was silent, because I was not a 
> socialist;
> When they came for the trade unionists, I did not protest, because I was not 
> a trade unionist;
> When they came for the Jews, I did not protest, because I was not a Jew;
> When they came for me, there was no one left to protest on my behalf."
> 
>  Martin Niemoeller (1892-1984)
> 
> 
> Then I see a group of people deciding on the basis of religion that certain 
> people should not be allowed to hold office.  I see those same people 
> deciding to target the businesses of their opponents.  I see them cry that 
> their opposition should be driven from the community as unworthy of living 
> in the presence of the rest of us.
> 
> All I have to do is change the words CCer and kirker to Jew and you get a 
> nice speach suitable for Adolph Hitler.
> 
> So please tell me that your "Protocals of the Elders of CC" is not heading 
> into print.
> 
> "When they came for the CCers, I was silent, because I was not a CCer; . . .
> 
> 
> And Andreas, if you change your last statement to National Socialist from 
> democratic, what sort of statement do you get?
> 
> The reality is that a small group of followers of one sect of Xtians is not 
> going to line anybody against the wall by governmental decree, but the kinds 
> of actions that are brewing among certain other elements of our society here 
> are very likely to.
> 
> And Wayne's, "Tolerance can end when ideas are expressed and argued for, for 
> if those ideas do not survive critical examination they ought not be 
> tolerated, especially if Draconian." is a flat statement of National 
> Socialist ideals.  Under that sort of dictum it becomes totally permisable 
> to lack toleration of those who disagree with you, the very first step to 
> open the gas chambers.
> 
> Under Wayne's thoughts, it is possibly pretty easily to target others.  The 
> Mormons believe that white guys were here on this continent as some sort of 
> lost ten tribes prior to Columbus getting here, a demonstrably strange idea, 
> so lets not tolerate them.  The Moslems believe that Mohamed's horse leaped 
> him to heaven from the Dome of the Rock, pretty bizarre by anybodies 
> standards and should therefore not be tolerated.  All Christians and Moslems 
> believe that they are the sole holders of the truth of G-d and that any who 
> do not follow their particular brand of faith are destined to burn in the 
> eternal fires of damnation, which seems pretty Draconian to me. so heck, not 
> one of them should be tolerated.  The Buddahist think that their main 
> squeeze hung out under the canopy of a nine headed snake, so lets not 
> tolerate them either.  And then you have the neo-Pagans who claim that the 
> ball of nickel-iron spinning through the void is actually something that 
> should be worshipped. . .
> 
> So not one of these people should be allowed to have businesses in Moscow 
> and not one of them allowed to serve in Government.  Hey they are all cults 
> to somebody, from the naked dancing wiccans on Moscow Mountain to the 
> minister of the Episcopal Church.
> 
> "Never again" has deep meaning to me.  In 1975, thirty years after the close 
> of the the second world war, on Yom HaShoah, I was at the reopening of the 
> Rashi Synagogue in Worms Germany.  From the 1300's until the 1940's, the 
> Yeshiva there had been a triving center of Jewish learning and the place of 
> worship for a large community.  Because certain Germans decided that the 
> ideas of that community did not survive their idea of critical examination, 
> they lined up the Jews of Worms by the rail tracks at the old cemetary, with 
> its over 600 years of headstones and sent them East.
> 
> In those silent halls of stone, where not one person who had lived in that 
> community prior to the war was still there to witness, we rededicated and 
> consecrated that place to their memory
> 
> So you want the CCers?  You will have to come through this Jew to get them.  
> If they want you on similar grounds, I would do no less.
> 
> Never again.
> 
> Phil Nisbet
> 
>>From: Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: Andreas Schou <ophite at gmail.com>
>>To: Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>>CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Open Letter
>>Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:12:57 -0700
>>
>>Another great quote, straight from the horse's mouth, is:
>>
>>"Reforming the State is not about forcing people to be Christians. But
>>it is about forcing people to outwardly conform to a Christian
>>standard and about protecting the Christian religion. Historically,
>>the civil magistrate has enforced laws against blasphemy, apostasy,
>>heresy, swearing, and working on the Sabbath. The difficulty is not in
>>defining or punishing these crimes; the difficulty is finding the
>>strength and wisdom to do so."
>>
>>That's right. Are you a Muslim? A Jew? A Hindu? Agnostic? How about a
>>Quaker or Methodist? How about a Reformed Christian who doesn't
>>believe in pedobaptism -- a belief which Doug has repeatedly referred
>>to as "heretical?" In Doug's America, you're first against the wall.
>>What is crazy is not that people object to this: what is crazy is that
>>we, which is to say, Moscow and Latah County, are electing people who
>>subscribe to this set of beliefs to public office. What is crazy is
>>that we're taking their openly hypocritical cries for tolerance
>>seriously.
>>
>>Tolerance is a virtue. I take appeals to my tolerance seriously, and
>>apprecate people who bring my lack of tolerance to my attention.
>>Infinite tolerance, however -- whether it's tolerating the mugger
>>who's got a pistol under your nose or agreeing to buy coffee whose
>>profits are devoted to preaching your own execution -- is crazy. No
>>matter how idealistic you are, eventually, some reducio ad absurdiam
>>will make you turn pragmatic. For me, this is that point.
>>
>>Those who refuse to abide by core democratic principles -- among them,
>>the general consent that you will not execute your political opponents
>>once you attain office -- should not participate in it at all, and be
>>prevented from doing so if at all possible by those voters that
>>actually care about its nhealth.
>>
>>-- ACS
> 
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