[Vision2020] To Rose Husky

Mon Jul 25 23:43:03 PDT 2005

On Jul 25, 2005, Joan wrote;

"Persecution?  Please.  By this definition, I persecuted my dog the
other day when I strongly objected to its peeing on my shoe.  (I
happened to be wearing the shoe at the time.  Naughty dog.)

If a church consistently flouts the law, consistently takes the king's
coin while deliberately and systematically ignoring the king's rules,
is it persecution to point this out?  Is it persecution to insist that
Christ Church and its leaders be held to the same rules and standards
as every other religious organization in Moscow?  Doug Wilson asks why
Rose Huskey and Saundra Lund aren't going after the Mormon Church or
the Methodists or the Catholics.  The answer is simple: the Mormons,
the Methodists, and the Catholics are not claiming property tax
exemptions on their office buildings and vanity press publishing
houses.  They walk the line; they don't try to hopscotch over it or dig
holes under it.

The only slippery slope in Moscow is the one Doug Wilson has spent the
past 15 years paving with banana peels.

Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
www.auntie-establishment.com"

Yes Joan, it is a slippery slope.  Using the example of the communion wine 
and the insistence that any wine used in a religious ceremony given to 
minors is supposedly a crime as preached by Ted and several others here on 
this particular listserv, Jews would indeed be barred from holding a Pesach 
Seder on University or City Property.  Similarly, Catholics who offer wine 
with their communions would also be barred from such religious practice 
involving those properties.  Only temperance minded religions need apply so 
order up the grade juice.

And in the zoning department, other Non-CC schools have indeed been sucked 
into the feud, forced to hire lawyers and defend their rights to conduct 
business.  That included MSD and its alternative HS location.

The fact is that Zoning and communion wine and the price paid for rental 
fees and a host of other 'issues' have nothing at all to do with what this 
feud is about.  You are at war with the CCers because they hold certain 
views that you find abhorrent.

The principle battle here is about statements made about Gay rights and 
others made with regards to Slavery.  Why on earth are you trying to play up 
some other angle?  Why make this some sort of holy war, where any action. 
regardless of who it hurts in the process, is justified as "the Law is the 
Law"?

I listened to the Auntie Establishment show from this last Sunday.  I found 
Rose's statements, that anybody who did not support your cause was some how 
a collaborator similar to the French who did not fight the Nazis, was very 
telling.  That statement was made after you had made the statement that 
people, who saw things in terms of an Us versus Them, were being mindless.  
So if we do not join Rose's side we are working for Hitler/Wilson and our 
kids will be ashamed that we did not fight on her side in the "Culture 
Wars"?  Looks pretty Us versus Them to me, but then if the shoe fits. . .

If you stuck with the real causes of this dispute, you would have a lot more 
community support.  I doubt that the bulk of the community concurs with an 
attitude that would foster violence against Gays and Lesbians.  I also doubt 
that the bulk of the population thinks that Southern Slavery was a good 
thing.  If you ask us to join you in condemning such behaviors, there is no 
doubt in my mind that you would receive wide spread acclaim and have no 
doubt had such for that stand.

But it’s beyond that now and spreading to others in areas unrelated to the 
cause of grievance.  Wilson is not Hitler.  We are not Occupied France.  The 
trains are not rolling east and the SD is not standing on every corner.  The 
CCers are not arming themselves, nor robbing armored cars, nor bumping off 
Radio Hosts.  Declarations of Total War are pretty strange under the 
conditions.

Phil Nisbet

>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] To Rose Husky
>Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:43:17 -0700
>
>You see what a 'slippery slope' this persecution of a church is?? It just
>goes on and on!
>PK
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Phil Nisbet" <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 5:13 PM
>Subject: [Vision2020] To Rose Husky
>
>
>I sent this offline, but seem to be blocked or more likely to be barred 
>from
>such a contact, though Rose sent me an offline message.  I am sending this
>to her on V2020 because I do want her to understand why I was concerned.
>
>From: Phil Nisbet <pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com>
>To: DonaldH675 at aol.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Marshmellows anyone?
>Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 4:50 PM
>Rose
>
>I note that this was not posted to V2020, so I will reciprocate.
>
>My concern is that JCP does indeed occasionally hold Pesach Seders either
>down at the Skate Park on City Ground rented for that purpose or up on
>campus.  I am not aware that a liquor licences has ever been obtained, 
>since
>its a who the heck woud think to do it kind of thing for a seder dinner.
>
>After a kid is 13, they are free to have the wine, since it is the date of
>adult religious obligation.
>
>We Jews only have a few times in the year when we have wine associated with
>a religious observance, but what you call Passover (Pesach) is the big 
>event
>and one in which the observation of the ceremony requires kids to be 
>present
>and in which membership of the community is confirmed and affirmed for all
>those who have reached the religious age of consent.
>
>The weekly christian observance of 'communion' uses a mouthful of wine or a
>tiny sip, which is one heck of a lot less wine than we use for Pesach.  I
>assume that if you oppose the CCers use of even a mouthful of wine for 
>those
>under the age of 21, you would be forced to follow suit with JCP should we
>ever hold a seder on public property.  This is particularly unfortunate,
>since I think that plans exist for having a seder to which non-Jews would 
>be
>invited
>
>I am not picking a fight with you guys on the issue of disagreement with
>Doug Wilson's ideas regarding Southern Slavery.  I am not picking a fight
>with you guys regarding his stand against gays.  I am disagreeing with a
>tactic which tends to diminish the freedom of others while leaving the real
>issues off the table.
>
>By turning the issue into a matter of zoning complaints and communion wine,
>you diminish your arguements, make them seem petty.  Further, you end up
>hurting other people not involved in the dispute, including the Jewish
>Community and some of the other schools that were not NSA and operating in
>the downtown.
>
>Denial that southern slavery was not a cruel and evil institution is 
>similar
>to holocaust denial.  But the way that holocaust denial has been largely
>defeated is education.  If you seriously want to bring that whole edifice
>down, hold a show on the realities of southern slavery, the deaths in the
>slave ships and the brutal treatment accorded to slaves.  Couple that with 
>a
>challenge to debate in public with Wilson and the guys who support such
>nonsense.
>
>Beta Klarsfeld chastised I and several freinds in the JDL many years ago 
>for
>busting heads of neo-Nazis in Germany.  Her point was that Never Again is
>not about beating the Aryan types with bats, its about showing how they
>really are and causing the community to shun them.  She noted that beating
>them to a paste was actually doing them more good than harm.  Not to long
>after she harangued us on the issue, she and her husband managed to bring
>Klaus Barbe to Justice in Lyon.  It did more to defang the neo-Nazis in
>Germany than all the JDL actions we had ever taken.
>
>Phil Nisbet
>
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>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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