[Vision2020] Wal-Mart meeting

Tue Dec 20 21:30:16 PST 2005

True -- Saundra Lund is my friend, and I will defend her.

True -- Even if I never met Saundra Lund, or met her and didn't like her, I 
would defend her right to speak and would thank her for the many times she's 
done so.

True -- I am not willing to automatically afford Donovan Arnold the moral 
high ground in any argument.

Also true, but overlooked by our vehement WalMart defender, is that WalMart 
is ALREADY IN MOSCOW.  No one would keep you from shopping there, Donovan, 
and, in fact, I would drive you there myself if you felt you had to go.  But 
many of us object to an expanded, new, Superstore.  Surely you see the 
difference.  If not, please study up.  And until you have a better grasp of 
the arguments, please try to be kind.  It's cheap, filling, and easy to do 
from home.

keely

From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Saundra Lund <sslund at adelphia.net>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart meeting
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:13:38 -0800 (PST)

Saundra,

  I assume nothing. That is just  all that you have offered the community. I 
need not look far to see how  far out you have gone in your irrational 
thinking with attempts to stop  religions from practicing communion with 
sacramental wine. Not even  prohibition forbid that.

  I do not care if you were once  pregnant, single, with 18 children, 
working five jobs, and living in a  shoe box with no help or even a word of 
peace from even God almighty.  It does not give you the right to take away 
the right of people living  on limited incomes, or anyone for that matter, 
from making a choice of  which store(s) they want to shop at or to maximize 
their purchasing  power.

  I do not claim to be an expert. But I do know two  things having worked 
with the poor, disabled, and elderly, and working  on my MS in Special 
Education, one is that every financial trustee for  the poor I know in 
Moscow uses Wal-mart and Winco as primary shopping.  I trust these financial 
people that are placed as trustees know what  they are doing. Second, that 
not everyone has the ability, apartment  space and equipment, or time to 
cook meals from scratch.

  I  am frankly just sick, no, more like outright disgusted with how you  
must make a federal case out of every person and business in this  community 
that YOU disagree with and paint them as evil doers. That is  WRONG!

  If you do not like a religion, do not practice it.  If you do not like a 
business, do not shop there. If you do not like a  practice, do not practice 
it. But your are so wrong in your attempts to  try and sue and attack 
everyone in this community and stop them from  doing what they want to do 
because it does not  fit YOUR   beliefs or ideology.

  So I do not ASSUME you are out for the  worst Saundra, I KNOW you are out 
for the worst, because that is all  you do is try to take people down and 
keep them from worshiping,  shopping and doing what and when they want to if 
you do not AGREE with  it.

  If you do not like Wal-mart, do not shop there. But do  not try to stop me 
and others, or tell us we cannot. I do not tell you  where you have to shop, 
what to drink, or what or how to worship. Get  out of people's personal 
lives Saundra.

  Saundra, you have  ONLY been about dividing this community and trying to 
force your will  on others. I think it is a waste of you time and talents.

   -DJA

   PS, I am looking for a grocery list, I am serious. Otherwise we know  you 
are all just talk. And if you make the list, I will seriously make  sure 
many poor families get it.

Saundra Lund <sslund at adelphia.net> wrote:   Donovan, Donovan, Donovan, there 
you go again assuming the worst.

The reason I asked the question is because I really want to know the answer,
not be attacked for asking the question.

Back when I worked for a non-profit dedicated to serve the needs to the
economically disadvantaged (including the working poor), the elderly, and
the disabled, we *did* offer such a class that also included the locations
and hours of the area's food banks.  However, it was consistently
under-utilized in spite of a good deal of effort trying to increase
awareness of this resource.

That was many years ago, and I don't know if that resource is still
available there, let alone if any similar resources are available here in
Latah County.  That's why I asked the question, and it might be something
I'd volunteer to help with.

It is offensive and absolutely incorrect for you to attribute to me
insulting the intelligence of the economically disadvantaged.  Why is it
you're so quick to assume such a dreadful thing???  Having had the honor
(and, yes, I consider it an honor) of having spent a huge chunk of my
professional life working with special populations, insulting intelligence
is not something I'd ever do, and SHAME on YOU for implying otherwise.

It is also incredibly offensive and insulting for you to think you have any
qualification whatsoever to preach to me about the plight of the
economically disadvantaged.  In addition to my professional experience, I
*was* one of the economically disadvantaged.  Until you've walked a mile in
my shoes as the single parent (of an infant) going to school full-time,
working full-time between two jobs, paying for child care, *not* eligible
for food stamps, and having to make the agonizing decision between buying
the antibiotic or the humidifier for a baby diagnosed with pneumonia because
I couldn't afford both, not to mention the day-to-day struggles, you'd do
best to hold your tongue.  Shame on you!

Saundra Lund
Moscow, ID

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
nothing.
Edmund Burke

***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2005, Saundra Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum
without the express written permission of the author.*****

-----Original Message-----
From: Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 2:28 PM
To: Saundra Lund; 'keely emerinemix'; vision2020 at moscow.com; 'Julie Crumley'
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart meeting

Saundra,

"Nonetheless, with all the talk about how "expensive" Safeway is, I'm
wondering if smart shopping is a skill others never learned?"

You are right. The reason that so many poor families cannot make it on $200
a month for grocery shopping at Safeway is because they are too stupid to
know how to read advertisements or clip coupons.

Perhaps you can donate your time and talented bargain shopping skills by
teaching them how to make it comfortably on a $800 a month paycheck and $200
in food stamps, especially since rent is now at least $450 a month.

Better yet, why don't you show us by making a list of what items a family of
four shopping at Safeway can eat on a $200 food budget. And let us not
forget, that in a family of four, chances are that at least one will be on
either a diabetic, low sodium, or low fat diet. Do not forget that you can
only eat potatoes and smack romen for so many years.

If you can do this, I suggest you drop it off at Inclusion North, the
Catholic Church, Stepping Stones, the Nazarene Church, and Community Action
Center; a lot of people would benefit from it.

Take Care,

_DJA

Saundra Lund  wrote:

  I have to agree with Julie & Keely in that I'm very pleased with
shopping at
  Safeway, and at Rosauers, too, and I still miss Tidymans . While
  there have been a few occasions at both Safeway & Rosauers when
checkout
  took longer than I'd have liked, it was the exception rather than
the rule.
  Back when I shopped at Wal-Mart, however, checkout always took
***way*** too
  long.

  With respect to prices, I also have to agree with Keely :-) And, I
have to
  add that my daughter & I managed to survive back in the days when I
was poor
  and there was no Wal-Mart.

  But, perhaps that's because the shopping habits I learned growing up
and
  followed as a smart but very poor consumer. I shopped the ads, tried
to
  plan meals around what's on sale, compared prices, and stocked up on
staples
  when prices were good. This works particularly well in Moscow since
the
  stores (with the exception of the Palouse Mall) are relatively close
since
  Moscow is relatively small. Even when I was *really* financially
strapped,
  I was able to eat pretty well, and now that I don't *have* to count
every
  penny (literally), old habits die hard & still work well :-)

  Certainly transportation factors in & I realize I was fortunate that
I had
  good friends I could catch rides with when I had no transportation.

  Nonetheless, with all the talk about how "expensive" Safeway is, I'm
  wondering if smart shopping is a skill others never learned?

  Saundra Lund
  Moscow, ID

  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to do
  nothing.
  Edmund Burke

  ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2005, Saundra
Lund.
  Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020
forum
  without the express written permission of the author.*****

  -----Original Message-----
  From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
  On Behalf Of keely emerinemix
  Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 12:16 PM
  To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; thansen at moscow.com;
vision2020 at moscow.com
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart meeting

  I think this is unfair. Safeway's prices are usually pretty good,
just as
  Rosauer's are, and sometimes they're both even better than Winco.
Sometimes
  not. Contrary to what Courtney says, those of us who are opposed to
a
  WalMart Supercenter aren't trying to reduce your shopping choices --
there
  is a WalMart here already, and you can buy your pop and buns
wherever you
  want. The WalMart battle is about something else entirely, and
unfairly
  maligning grocery stores is a poor way to make the pro-WalMart point
you
  want to.

  I live right by Safeway, and so I shop there most often. For all
it's
  worth, I think the service there is great, especially in pharmacy,
deli and
  produce. If you want to shop at WalMart -- the one we have right
here -- go
  ahead. But please don't plan your monthly budget around the
beneficient
  presence in your life that is WalMart, because there's very little
evidence
  that WalMart is interested in yours or anyone else's wellbeing.

  keely

  From: Donovan Arnold
  To: Tom Hansen , vision2020 at moscow.com
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Wal-Mart meeting
  Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:20:04 -0800 (PST)

  "And just what is Safeway?"

  Safeway is a giant convenience store that poor people cannot afford.

  Many of their customers only go there to save time from running
across
  town. Compare, Safeway- $4.50 for a lb of meat, and $5.50 for a 12
pack of
  soda. $2 for a bag of hamburger buns. Compare to Wal-Mart or Win-Co,
$5 for
  a 20 pack of soda, 68 cents for a bag of hamburger buns, and $2.25
for lb a
  meat. Feeding a family on $200 a month, what would you do? Wal-Mart,
  Win-Co, and Safeway get almost all of their food goods from US and
Canadian
  farmers. I go to Safeway because it is close to my apartment. There
prices
  are through the roof, and their lines are long and slow. Not to
mention I
  frequently catch them ringing my food up for a higher price then
they
  advertised it to be, I caught them three times in one month
overcharging
  me, then you have to argue with over it, and half the time the price
  difference is not worth the arguing. I will say though that Eric,
the
  general manager, is nice guy.
  Wal-Mart coming in on the east side will save me no less than $75 a
  month, and for a college student, that is a great deal of money.

  -DJA

  Tom Hansen wrote:
  st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Arnold stated:

  “So my guess is that it [addition of a Wal-Mart superstore] would
have
  the same impact as it is having now with one exception;

  The only thing new is a grocery store on the east side of town.”

  And just what is Safeway?

  Tom Hansen
  Moscow, Idaho

  “I think one of the best ways to support education is to make
  successful private schools like Logos prosper through tax
exemption.”

  - Donovan Arnold (July 11, 2005)

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