[Vision2020] Mr. Fox's Talk'in (sic) down (sic) to God

[Art Deco]

Donovan,

Like Doug Farris, you have missed the entire point, which is not surprising. 
See my response to Farris, please.


Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: <deco at moscow.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Mr. Fox's Talk'in (sic) down (sic) to God


> Mr. Fox writes:
>
> "Let's see:
>
> Do you not see logical and epistemological problems
> inherent in claiming:
>
> [1]    Some alleged god is omnipotent, omniscient, and
> ominbenevolent, and
>
> [2]    That the bible, the alleged "word" of this
> alleged god, is so unclear, confusing, and
> inconsistent that there are millions of different
> interpretations of it, each brutally different (as are
> some of the actions consequent) and inconsistent with
> each other?" ---Wayne Fox
>
> (1) NO Wayne, it is not logical to believe in a God.
> That is why it is called FAITH.
> (2) There is a different interpretation of the Bible
> because everyone interprets words differently. As was
> illustrated in your Communication 101 course, if I say
> dog, cat, bird, mammal, car, etc. everyone gets a
> different image in their head of what a dog, cat,
> bird, etc. is.  So it is not possible for a book to be
> written in such a fashion so that everyone over 4000 +
> years will view it the same way.  And it may have also
> been the intention of the author not to.
>
>
>
> "Perhaps you have been so busy that you have failed to
> notice that there are many, many persons who are
> sincere Christians, including many scholars who have
> spent their lives studying the bible and studying the
> works of others in the past who have spent their lives
> studying the bible, cannot even agree on some very
> basic elements of the so-called Christian faith.
>
> For example: Where and when Jesus was born?
>
> Which words in the bible were actually spoken by Jesus
> and which were made up by persons with their own
> agendas/interpretations?"
>
>
> Sorry Wayne, but those and the other questions you
> asked are not the core principles of the Christian
> faith. Regardless of if Jesus was born on September,
> 2,5 BC or December 25, 01 AD his teachings were
> equally true.
>
> None of the words you read in the Bible were actually
> spoken by Jesus because he did not speak English, or
> probably any other language the Bible is written in
> today. And even if it was, the words would have
> changed meaning to such a degree as to be
> indistinguishable to the original reader of the
> language. Just look at the changes in the US English
> and England's English in a couple hundred years.
>
> All these other questions are questions you have to
> figure out on your own through your personal
> relationship with God. I do not think that anyone can
> make blanket statements that abortion is ALWAYS wrong
> or ALWAYS right. I do not think that people can say
> that homosexual relationships are ALWAYS right or
> ALWAYS wrong. The same goes for all your other
> questions. The way to know the answer for each
> instance is to build a relationship with God and ask
> Him what to do in each situation you encounter.
>
> I TRY to use the basic teachings of the Bible, my
> personal relationship with Christ, and the two
> principles of "Do what I believe to be in obedience to
> God" and ask if "It is the most loving thing I am
> doing for my neighbor" in guiding my actions.
> Although, I am human and always fall short of this, I
> try to get better as I get older. Maybe when I am 1000
> years old I will be 1/1000 the way there.
>
> "Does god have a gender?"
>
> Does it matter?
>
> "Is heaven a temporal/spatial realm?"
>
> Again, does it matter?
>
> "If your alleged god is powerful, smart, and good,
> couldn't she/it/he have written much clearer,
> ultimately more persuasive instructions  to live
> correctly and to attain eternal bliss so as to not
> only avoid any confusion, even among the feeble
> witted, but to avoid all the corruption, torture, war,
> oppression, human and animal suffering, and
> divisiveness which has occurred and continues to occur
> in the name of this alleged god and its/hers/his
> 'word'?"
>
> Do you think Man would have avoided "all the
> corruption, torture, war, oppression, human and animal
> suffering, and divisiveness which has occurred and
> continues to occur" no matter what was written in the
> Bible, or for that matter anywhere else?" Do you not
> think the commandment of "Love thy Neighbor" is CLEAR
> enough not to do those things?
>
> It appears as though you are saying God should not
> have given Mankind freewill to do wrong. Or, that a
> loving God would only allow people to do things that
> had no negative consequences toward anyone or
> anything? I think God forcing us to love one another
> diminishes the purpose of our existence by eliminating
> freewill to love and do no ill deeds to others.
>
> "Based on the mode of existence, there is no evidence
> that there is any difference between making these
> statements of some alleged god or making them of Porky
> Pig or Count Dracula.  Their mode of existence appears
> the same -- fantasy."
>
> There is a reason why almost every culture in the
> world, regardless of time, location, isolation,
> language, age, or technological advancement is aware
> of a God. They are not all aware of the existence of
> Porky the Pig, nor is everything Porky say true.
>
> Believing in God is based on faith. It is based on
> personal experiences. It is not based on observable
> empirical scientific data that can be repeated and
> analyzed in a lab. But also keep in mind that science
> does not dismiss the possibility of God either.
>
> To say there is no God because there is no evidence to
> back the claim is just as illogical as to claim there
> is a God because there is no evidence there is no God
> either. That is why it is purely a matter of faith and
> personal experiences. My personal experiences tell
> there is God. I can only tell you that there is a God
> based on what I have see and experienced. I cannot
> prove it to you.
>
> What is illogical though is to slander God. There is
> either a God, or there is not. If there is no God,
> there would have been no harm in not slandering
> something that does not exist. However, if it turns
> out there is a God; well you might regret hurting the
> very being that loves you the most.
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>> Donovan writes:
>>
>> {["Is his alleged god so disabled, inept, and
>> illiterate that his alleged words needs 'sidebars'?"
>>
>>
>> Wayne Fox]
>>
>> No Wayne. He put the sidebars there because you are
>> so inept and illiterate and could not figure out
>> that He supports people coming together in prayer.
>>
>> PS, I would not go around calling God disabled,
>> inept, and illiterate.
>>
>> Let's see:
>>
>> Do you not see logical and epistemological problems
>> inherent in claiming:
>>
>> [1]    Some alleged god is omnipotent, omniscient,
>> and ominbenevolent, and
>>
>> [2]    That the bible, the alleged "word" of this
>> alleged god, is so unclear, confusing, and
>> inconsistent that there are millions of different
>> interpretations of it, each brutally different (as
>> are some of the actions consequent) and inconsistent
>> with each other?
>>
>>
>> Perhaps you have been so busy that you have failed
>> to notice that there are many, many persons who are
>> sincere Christians, including many scholars who have
>> spent their lives studying the bible and studying
>> the works of others in the past who have spent their
>> lives studying the bible, cannot even agree on some
>> very basic elements of the so-called Christian
>> faith.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> Where and when Jesus was born?
>>
>> Which words in the bible were actually spoken by
>> Jesus and which were made up by persons with their
>> own agendas/interpretations?
>>
>> If Jesus was the result of an "immaculate
>> conception" (curious term, indicating disdain and
>> disgust with the joy of the normal reproductive
>> process) or was he the result of Joseph's (or
>> someone else's) interdiction.  If the former, then
>> Jesus could not be descended from David via Joseph's
>> and other interveners' begetting as claimed.
>>
>> Is capital punishment permissible?
>>
>> Is abortion permissible?
>>
>> Are monogamous homosexual relations permissible?
>>
>> Is it permissible to lie in order to forward some
>> alleged works on behalf of god?
>>
>> Do you have to be a Christian or even believe in god
>> to be eligible for eternal reward?
>>
>> Are all non-Christians damned to eternal punishment?
>>
>> Is slavery permissible?
>>
>> Can women be religious/spiritual
>> professionals/counselors?
>>
>> Are blacks inferior/subservient to whites?
>>
>> Is prayer to be private or public?
>>
>> Do Christians have a duty to protect and conserve
>> natural resources and wildlife?
>>
>> Does the bread and wine of communion become the
>> actual blood and flesh of Christ at the moment of
>> ingestion?
>>
>> Is the Pope infallible?
>>
>> Does god have a gender?
>>
>> Is heaven a temporal/spatial realm?
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>> Etc.
>>
>> If your alleged god is powerful, smart, and good,
>> couldn't she/it/he have written much clearer,
>> ultimately more persuasive instructions  to live
>> correctly and to attain eternal bliss so as to not
>> only avoid any confusion, even among the feeble
>> witted, but to avoid all the corruption, torture,
>> war, oppression, human and animal suffering, and
>> divisiveness which has occurred and continues to
>> occur in the name of this alleged god and
>> its/hers/his "word"?
>>
>>
>> You write:
>>
>> PS, I would not go around calling God disabled,
>> inept, and illiterate.
>>
>> Based on the mode of existence, there is no evidence
>> that there is any difference between making these
>> statements of some alleged god or making them of
>> Porky Pig or Count Dracula.  Their mode of existence
>> appears the same -- fantasy.
>>
>>
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> deco at moscow.com
>>  >
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